New Sagan Collection Framesets

[TheRich]

I think I would only seriously consider custom if I were really, really tall or really, really short. I have no issue choosing from various stock sizes usually with adjustments in bar reach and saddle position. Will a custom bike ride better than a Trek/Specialized/Colnago/Bianchi/etc? Maybe, maybe not. I guess it might creak less than a $11000 Cannondale...

Only because they acknowledge that their specs aren't tight enough to use pressfit.

Half those bikes are Trek 520s with nice paint jobs.

Are you aware a Trek 520 is Trek's full loaded touring bike? Steel frame and fork. Used to be cantilever brakes, maybe disc now. Fully loaded touring bike. Rear rack, front lowrider rack, four panniers, handlebar bag, fenders. Trek 520 is a loaded touring bike.

That's the joke.

[Butcher]

In the US, it's $6k for a Venge and $4.5k for a Tarmac. That is not that extreme in my book. Complaining about something you cannot afford just reflects how much you are making. If you made more, you would look at it differently.

Anyone in business knows that it takes a lot of man hours to make just a few items. Time is money. I have no idea how much time was spent dealing with Peter to find a color that he will put his name on it. I do not know how much paint was used to come up with the right color. I do not know how much time was spent on this concept to see if it was worth doing. All I know, it's really not that much more if you consider everything that had to happen to come to market.

Specialized can charge whatever they want, because it's not against the law. If they charge too much, they will have a sale to get rid of them.

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/shop/ ... esult-list

[tarmackev]

To put things into perspective, my luxury SUV only cost five times the price of a Sagan Venge frameset.

Newsflash: Your SUV is not a luxury item.
Sagan Venge is.
You gotta think more along the lines of Ferrari, Lamborghini etc.

I don’t know, the definition of luxury is “a state of great comfort or elegance, especially when involving great expense”.
I’d say a nice SUV could tick all these boxes where as a Sagan frame would just be expensive.



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[spud]

your are right and wrong. My determination as to whether it is overpriced has nothing to do with how much I make. It's about intrinsic value. I base instrinsic value on what's out there for what cost, and my history of experience and expenditure. So $6K doesn't work for me. But so what. Others will pony up, and you are absolutely correct, additional time and effort went into creating these new paints schemes. Spec is smart to keep this exclusive. They do look baller too!

[tarmackev]

I just googled luxury SUV and luxury bike frame. Pretty sure OP’s SUV will be one of the SUV’s shown.
Guarantee the Sagan frame won’t come up in the frames, I doubt specialised will use the term “luxury” in any of the ads or tech spec.

An exclusive design indeed but nothing luxury about it..... Well for me anyway, others have a different view.


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[Butcher]

@spud. You are at a movie, you buy a bag of popcorn at $20. You pay for it because you want some popcorn to enjoy the movie. If you were smart, you would not buy the popcorn, you would say it's overpriced. You could say that about Disneyland too. Once you get into that park, you get fleeced.

Some people believe they will enjoy life with a Sagan frame. Some people think it's overpriced.

How much money you have greatly depends on if it's overpriced. There are people like Warren Buffet, but not many. Certainly less than the amount of Sagan frames they will make.

[Sock3t]

If we want cheaper premium bikes, we need more people to be interested in the sport/hobby.

That's not how economics works. There's no proper equilibrium on higher end luxery items because they present a want, not a need. Pricing of them is purely off marketing, as covering their costs are easy based on economies of scale. It's dirt cheap to change the paint side of things when the manufacturering is the same.

If demand rose (more people buying), then price would only increase to match the niche they fullfil, with supply being constant. The only way for price to come down would either be a shift in demand or supply, supply has an inverse relationship to price, while demand has a direct relationship.

[TobinHatesYou]

You’re not factoring increased competition in a healthier market, and increased revenue making companies more likely to accept lower gross margins. And yes economies of scale still matter in the premium tier...note I didn’t mention halo tier.

[Sock3t]

You’re not factoring increased competition in a healthier market, and increased revenue making companies more likely to accept lower gross margins. And yes economies of scale still matter in the premium tier...note I didn’t mention halo tier.

Those are some drastic assumptions that do not disprove classic economics. You're speculating while I have the luxury of not, I didn't make a claim either way.

Specialzied is in an interesting position - they are consistently making "special" one off items that are flashy and shiny. No other brand I've found does anything like it, Wahoo did a little with their multi-colour bolt, and that's about it. Specialized does it and seems to really take advantage of the long tail, whether it's pricing or colours.

Trek's close with their Project bikes, but they lack the "series" that specialized does.

[AJS914]

For the buyer that falls for the Sagen exclusivity increased competition doesn't matter. That buyer is not looking at a plain S5 or Madone.

I think the only think that rubs most people the wrong way is luxury marketing moving into cycling. If anyone wants to read about luxury marketing:

https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/250745

[Bordcla]

Saw the new Sagan Tarmac and Venge framesets on one of our local shops' website. It's SEVEN GRAND for a Tarmac and TEN GRAND for a Venge. Those are framesets, not complete bikes!

The top of the line Treks are now a grand shy of TWENTY GRAND!

That's the price of a full-on Superbike with 200 hp, traction control, ABS, and world superbike level electronic aids, and often even electronically controlled suspension.

In recent years I have often mentioned this same analogy using Ducati's
I use to call it the Rapha clubhouse effect

The only thing I can think after seeing it continue is as the phrase went....
"There is one born every minute"

Because as I think back on 35+ years of riding I remember Italian craftsmen hand brazing beautiful intricate
cut lugs & using Columbus tubes that were double butted or even rifled or fluted into beautiful frames at more than fair prices.

Yes prices go up with inflation but as you say this is waaaay out of whack

As cycling moved frame building offshore to Asia where it is now made with much cheaper labor & time involved
prices have gone silly to the point one can only assume they tell riders/buyers touch their toes & spell RUN
And...many riders/buyers oblige

But hey...there is one born every minute so carry on I guess

PS: All of the above is just IMHO

While I know that there is one born every minute, I guess I'm simply disconcerted that with the kind of income that I make, a top end bike (by that, I mean the "regular" $13k S-Works) is not something I can realistically afford, and that even today's replacement for my 7-year old 2nd-tier "pro" model is now flirting with 5 figures, where it used to be $4k. We're not taking 20 years ago here.

Even big money will now only land a buyer somewhere below mid-range, which I find ludicrous.

[Bordcla]

For reference, here in Canada, the regular S-Works Venge and regular Tarmac are $15.3k and $13.7K, respectively. Is the Venge really only half that in the US???

[kma556]

To me, even the mid-range stuff is ridiculous - Tarmac Comp with mechanical Ultegra: £3150

I have the money in the bank to pay for it, so it's not like I'm complaining because I can't afford it, but it would just feel wrong to spend that kind of money on that bike.

I'd probably pay £2K for it and not feel ripped off. The good thing is, when next year's colours come out it will be on sale and suddenly be a grand cheaper.

[AJS914]

Or, just buy used in like new condition. I was looking at Madone 9s and was routinely finding 1 year old bikes that retailed for $8K for $4K. And these bikes were all mint, hardly ridden.

[AJS914]

November Dave's latest blog post was intereting. He thinks that with disc brakes dominating the market, it opens the door for chinese carbon clinchers since heat resistant brake tracks are no longer required.

https://novemberbicycles.com/blogs/blog ... e-changing

The $3000 wheelset companies aren't looking that great with the changing market.

He also wrote:

What does all this mean? Depending on your take, the shift to disc brakes lies somewhere between the absolutely logical progression and a desperate hail mary thrown by the industry to sell more product to the alpha consumers on whom it increasingly depends. Each "unit sales down, average selling price up" report means that the alpha consumers are holding more weight for the industry, and those are the only kind of reports you read these days.

So these Sagan bikes are aimed squarely at the Alpha consumers.