The wheelbuilding thread

[GS100]

I see what you mean. That's very interesting.

You can't lace the wheel even 2x if you do all the heads on one side as the first cross comes too close to the hub. So that can't be right.

I think you are right that it "looks like" a design flaw at first glance but I'd just lace them conventionally anyway. That's what's intended, even by Tune themselves.

Here's a crazy idea. If you do notice stress at the J-bend there is also the option of countersinking the holes yourself. I wouldn't do it before testing two different brands of spokes there first though. They do have that channel on the inside to help with the head seating, which leads me to believe they know the problem very well. Also, steel spokes are pretty flexible.

Thank you - this explains why all guides advocate alternating head in/out, and tune forbids radial anyway, so 2X it is..

And the hi res images you attached do illustrate well what I've encountered.

Doing further research suggests this is bevelling - not intended as countersinking for the heads - to accomdate the J bend, and guides suggest to always lace that way if bevelling is only on one side.

Given that's not an option I think I will have to alternate anyway - I've had another go at inserting spokes and it is possible both ways but v tight. I'll try some old other sopkes too first.

Failing that I'll get out my countersunk drill bit and pray! Maybe..

[jever98]

Have you asked Tune directly?

[alcatraz]

Yeah ask Tune before attempting modifications.

[GS100]

Cheers all. I asked them, and got a prompt reply

"You can alternate the spokes as usual on other hubs. The bevelled flange is due to the slight angle to improve seating of the spoke heads
With sporty regards "

[Spiduhman]

Update: just over 70 months ago rebuilt rear wheel after reading this entire thread, wheel still rolling true, thanks to all, particularly the regulars.
Just over three years ago, finally got around to rebuilding #1 bike rear wheel, still rolling true as well.
Just for fun, looking at it from t'other side, regarding race ds choice, a bit heavier than the cxray, and the crosses are further away from the hub - the cxray lays flatter at the cross - looks bitchin'. At 28 spokes, perhaps cxray both sides would be ok, however, if doing over/again, would spoke same, and same spoke count, even though I'm running much less weight now, ~180 lbs.
These have been great wheels for me, no hesitation in recommending - durable, comfortable, performing; want to offer this note, however: my observation, the C2 is more flexy than the retired rims they replaced, hence, tension enough that they aren't under tensioned with the tire mounted.
Side note, I'd had wheels built for me, however, rear wheel under tensioned, fail. The rebuild was over tensioned, ruined the rim - pull out. The next rebuild under tensioned, fail. From there, I resolved to diy, so researched, obtained stand, gauge, wrench, spoke prep, go.
Side note ii, looked like spoke prep wiped out of by others built, so carefully cleaned the spoke threads with lacquer thinner - against any cutting residue (the spokes had been shortened by the supplier...) - prior to assembly; seems to be working ok.

WI T11 hub, black; Hed C2 rim, 28 holes; Sapim race ds, cxray nds, 2x; even tension over dead true, both run out <.2mm
(fronts are radial 24 hole, one is laser, t'other cxray)

[jmfreeman535]

I damaged the rear rim of my Roval C38's, and while Roval offers replacement rims, they are ridiculously expensive and backordered, so I am considering my options.

One of them is to replace both the front and rear rims with LB WR35's...would I be able to do a straight swap, keeping the current spokes (dt swiss competition race, j-bend)? There is a 3mm difference in rim heights and I'm not sure it that will be an issue when it come to threading the sopkes.

[alcatraz]

Sometimes the same rim depth isn't interchangeable. Depends on the wall thickness at the spokes and how much it compresses under tension.

Best is to compare ERD. If it's equal chances are 99% a direct swap can be done.

I don't know if roval do things standard with the rims, or have holes drilled with offsets or angles, or use washers. These things can influence the swap.

But you should use the rim you like. Spokes are not that expensive. The wheelset will not match anyway.

[Feehliks]

One question: a 700c wheel with a 58 mm deep rim: 18 or 20 spokes front? straight pull, rim brake, radial spokes. Normal hub, not a track hub.

[alcatraz]

Doesn't really matter. The difference is miniscule.

Deep rims don't require as many spokes. If you do attempt a sprint test between wheels, you might prefer a standard spoke count but apart from that scenario it's not very different. I ride 16 spoke fronts myself but I'm not much of a sprinter, don't spend much time out of the saddle, or do hairpin turn descents, so I'm willing to make that compromise for myself.

Also if you're going to work with 4gr spokes like cx-ray, cn424, 1422 then you're not building a comparable wheel to zipp/campy who also do 18 spoke fronts. They use heavier spokes.

If you're a strong/heavy sprinter then you need more stiffness to not rub your brakes.

[themidge]

^ I'm wondering about this because I have some Dura Ace hubs to build up, which are 16/20 F/R. With a 50mm rim, would I be okay with Sapim Lasers or should I go for Sapim Race, maybe Laser on the front and Race on the back?

I'm ~60kg and ride out the saddle a fair bit, I need the wheels to be stiff enough to not rub on climbs or in sprints.

[alcatraz]

I googled duraace 16h front and saw a pic of the wh9000. If that's the hub, it looks quite good with relatively generously spaced and sized flanges. I don't think you'll rub your brakes if the rim isn't very shallow.

Good geometry is worth one or two invisible spokes.

While 16 spokes can't be the first choice for climbing and sprinting, you can probably make it satisfactory if you use a good spoke. Lasers are 4.4gr and Race are 5.7gr. Shimano spokes are likely over 6gr so if you want a wheel that is in any way comparable with shimano then you'd be better off with Race.

I'm 65kg and ride deep 16h fronts (with poor geometry hubs) on 4.3gr spokes and I get a little bit of brake rub when doing hillclimb sprints. I'm not doing 1000 watts either. The geometry will act in your favor but if you're sprinting at lets say over 600w you could possibly experience a bit of brake rub, if you go Laser. I say this simply by comparing with my own experience.

[DamonRinard]

Judging from this photo, you may need to flatten the spoke head. I've done this successfully using a smooth jawed vice.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/spokes/shim ... 0/?geoc=US

[themidge]

Sorry I should have mentioned, they're Dura Ace wh7900, so the old silver 10 speed ones. Thankfully, they take normal straight-pull spokes.

Thanks for the advice @alcatraz, I think I'll probably go with Race rear and Laser front. I've had trouble with brake rub on the rear (flexy, shallow, alloy tubs with Lasers, now binned ), but never on the front (same build) so I hope it will be fine. Stop me if that sounds like a bad idea though!

Shame about the extra weight, but the hubs already weigh this wheelset down anyway, should be about 1430g with Farsports 50mm tubs and Race spokes in the rear.

[Cubist]

is it wise to go with internal nipples on me new light bicycle ar 55mm rims with carbon ti disc x hubs?

[alcatraz]

Internal nipples or a no nipple hole rim bed, are modern features but they require more time building the wheel. If you're not building the wheels yourself you might need to pay a premium for such a feature. Some builders might not want to build such wheels at all.

If you do it yourself and aren't in a rush then you might enjoy trying it. The end result (when achieved successfully) is quite nice. My latest wheelsets are all with internal nipples. I only stumbled across problems when the rim got very deep like 75mm as the nipples under tension didn't align and were nearly impossible to engage with the tool. You need a solid grip when making adjustments under high tension. 55mm could introduce some issue but there are some tricks I could share.

If you intend to run the wheels tubeless and have struggled with rim tape you might want a hole-less configuration. This obviously requires external nipples.