Training difference Mountain to Road
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I am a seasoned Mountain bike racer. I am a Cat 1 (I race Cat 1/Open locally). I have been dabbling in road and got the upgrade to Cat 3 at the end of this last season. I don't see myself giving up racing Mountain but I am liking the new challenge and have really been enjoying Crit racing. I am thinking of doing more road and crit racing this year.
Generally how different are training plans for Road vs Mountain? What should I focus on? Is it an issue of experience? Do a handful of races and see where I fall flat then go work on that? Is there a better guideline then that? Currently I follow something close to the Joel Friel MTB plan. I run about 12hr a week during the season and I currently don't have a power meter. I looked but didn't see this addressed (I maybe be blind).
Generally XC around here is flat and fast. A lot of the good road rider beat up on me at the flatter races. What is it I am missing?
Generally how different are training plans for Road vs Mountain? What should I focus on? Is it an issue of experience? Do a handful of races and see where I fall flat then go work on that? Is there a better guideline then that? Currently I follow something close to the Joel Friel MTB plan. I run about 12hr a week during the season and I currently don't have a power meter. I looked but didn't see this addressed (I maybe be blind).
Generally XC around here is flat and fast. A lot of the good road rider beat up on me at the flatter races. What is it I am missing?
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What is it I am missing?
Just speculating, but maybe you are missing the importance of drafting ?
I notice that mountain bike riding seems to depend on a very high level of fitness, and they sort of go all out from the gun, and the strongest riders pull away.
Road bike racing depends a lot on putting out the minimum energy required until the right tactical moments and then going near nuclear for a while.
It could be the on/off nature of road racing, where the group has to respond to attacks, versus mountain bike racing, more like a time trial-- pick your highest pace and keep it on.
Maybe try some intervals, or some jumps so you can better respond to pack surges and attacks.
Maybe try some intervals, or some jumps so you can better respond to pack surges and attacks.
Learning to be opportunistic and how to reserve energy are both areas that I can grow a lot in. Strong man doesn't always win in a road race. I have fallen guilty to pulling everyone around.
In my mountain training intervals of 3-10 min seem to be the most helpful in racing. Would more intervals in the 10-40 sec be more helpful in road racing? Should I do them seated or standing?
In my mountain training intervals of 3-10 min seem to be the most helpful in racing. Would more intervals in the 10-40 sec be more helpful in road racing? Should I do them seated or standing?
I'm actually curious about this too. That was just my observation being a midpack A mtb rider, and a bottom 1/4th C road racer. Looking back, the only times I have finished well in a road race is on really hilly courses where the pack fractured and I was on my own, or in a small group for most of the race... I definitely have trouble responding to surges though, and If I get to the finish with the pack, I can't do much in a sprint.
Drider, almost sounds like you are from Oz, as it’s both XCO and Crit season here!
In my opinion the difference between Road and XC racing is road is highly dependent on FTP and motoring around at tempo conserving energy with the big blasting attacks from time to time; XC racing like Criteriums is heavily dependent on AWC, attack (climb), easy (descend), attack, easy, repeat. Whilst having a massive FTP on a mountain bike will help, it’s probably not as imperative as high short <5min duration power, and repeatability being able to nail the desired output again and again and again. I would be inclined to focus on shorter duration intervals well above FTP these will not only improve the top end, but they will drag up your FTP as well (use RPE & HR) – to address the issue of struggling on flatter races try and sneak in some longer FTP intervals into your week, say once a week something like 4 x 10mins @ >FTP, 2 x 20min @ FTP or 1hr @ tempo, etc…
In my opinion the difference between Road and XC racing is road is highly dependent on FTP and motoring around at tempo conserving energy with the big blasting attacks from time to time; XC racing like Criteriums is heavily dependent on AWC, attack (climb), easy (descend), attack, easy, repeat. Whilst having a massive FTP on a mountain bike will help, it’s probably not as imperative as high short <5min duration power, and repeatability being able to nail the desired output again and again and again. I would be inclined to focus on shorter duration intervals well above FTP these will not only improve the top end, but they will drag up your FTP as well (use RPE & HR) – to address the issue of struggling on flatter races try and sneak in some longer FTP intervals into your week, say once a week something like 4 x 10mins @ >FTP, 2 x 20min @ FTP or 1hr @ tempo, etc…
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Yeah there are only a few specific instances where FTP is actually important in road racing. Some examples include long climbs, crosswind gutter stringing, and time trials.
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You're being flippant, right, ITTY?
Another world indeed. It is the dragging dead of winter here. 2 months until the early spring races kick off. I managed to do a 4*10min near FTP outside it was 17f/8c yesterday.
The mountain racing here is not very dependent on anaerobic capacity as it is a big motor.The Friel MTB doesn't recommend shorter sprint intervals (<1min) until your closer to peaking for the season. Will focusing on the shorter intervals induce a peak early? Is it just the percentage of training at shorter intervals?
The mountain racing here is not very dependent on anaerobic capacity as it is a big motor.The Friel MTB doesn't recommend shorter sprint intervals (<1min) until your closer to peaking for the season. Will focusing on the shorter intervals induce a peak early? Is it just the percentage of training at shorter intervals?
drider85 wrote:Another world indeed. It is the dragging dead of winter here. 2 months until the early spring races kick off. I managed to do a 4*10min near FTP outside it was 17f/8c yesterday.
The mountain racing here is not very dependent on anaerobic capacity as it is a big motor.The Friel MTB doesn't recommend shorter sprint intervals (<1min) until your closer to peaking for the season. Will focusing on the shorter intervals induce a peak early? Is it just the percentage of training at shorter intervals?
No good regarding the weather, we are lucky enough not to have to suffer though it; although this summer has been quite humid as opposed to the usual dry heat we get.
You sound like a flat lander; that being the case a big engine will help! I am not familiar with the Friel MTB plans but working on FTP with longer intervals will help here probably a little more than shorter intervals; that said it is difficult to know without knowing a lot more.
Regarding shorter intervals, and peaking early - NO! Quite a few athletes do short intervals year round (like myself), others work to reverse periodization doing shorter stuff over winter, longer when it is more appealing (devinciXC on here for instance).
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ITTY wrote:Yeah there are only a few specific instances where FTP is actually important in road racing.
yea....like 100% of the time.
I guess what I mean is you won't be spending all that much time at FTP in road racing except for specific cases. I find that usually it's either Z2-3 sitting in the bunch, or Z5-6 for accelerations, short climbs, attacks, etc.
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The point isn't though, for road racing, that you sit at FTP and that's what decides it. Rather that having a higher FTP means that when I'm sitting in low z2 you're in z3 - so when the hammer goes down, I have significantly more energy to respond and stay with the moves.
It's the rising tide that lifts all ships. And plenty of my MTB buddies do road kms simply because it helps push their FTP up - which they seem to struggle to do on the dirt, given the stop/start nature of it.
It's the rising tide that lifts all ships. And plenty of my MTB buddies do road kms simply because it helps push their FTP up - which they seem to struggle to do on the dirt, given the stop/start nature of it.
Right. I think that goes without saying that FTP can be a great general indicator of overall fitness. So we're on the same page. I'm just saying that you won't usually win a race at FTP. As to the translation of fitness from mountain to road, I wouldn't have a clue, since I've never raced mountain bikes. Maybe I should have just stayed out of this thread.
To answer the OP. A good training plan for MTB will be a massive but structured stack of road miles/intervals/threshold work, with a bit of offroad skills/handling. The good road plan will essentially miss out the off road bits. That's it.
The best XC mtbers train ~85% on road. (Maybe on their mtb, maybe on a training/road bike)
Unless you are very very lucky in your location and the trails around you, it's almost impossible to train properly to race MTB, off road. I live in the midst of a massive network of trails/dirt roads/tracks/footpaths, and I still struggle to find anywhere to do *proper* intervals, or threshold work. There are too many breaks/obstacles/junctions. On the road, I can do intervals/threshold stuff 500 metres from my front door.
And you will find once you get your head round road training, your mtbing will come on in leaps and bounds.
The surges and pace changes that are killing you on the road will become useful tools on the MTB, pace changes *hurt*, get better at them and you'll do better at mtbing. You can have a much better go at breaking the people you were finishing with.
The best XC mtbers train ~85% on road. (Maybe on their mtb, maybe on a training/road bike)
Unless you are very very lucky in your location and the trails around you, it's almost impossible to train properly to race MTB, off road. I live in the midst of a massive network of trails/dirt roads/tracks/footpaths, and I still struggle to find anywhere to do *proper* intervals, or threshold work. There are too many breaks/obstacles/junctions. On the road, I can do intervals/threshold stuff 500 metres from my front door.
And you will find once you get your head round road training, your mtbing will come on in leaps and bounds.
The surges and pace changes that are killing you on the road will become useful tools on the MTB, pace changes *hurt*, get better at them and you'll do better at mtbing. You can have a much better go at breaking the people you were finishing with.
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