Campagnolo Super Record Rear Derailleur (pre-2015) top pivot

[ferrarista]

The only way to remove the pivot bolt that I know is to drill it in the center. The assembly is two part with O-rings like you can see in the file attached. To install you need a special tool that is available only for Campy SC. Some Pro shops also have the tool. You could modify or have something made by a machine shop if you want to do the same thing.

Thanks, the diagram helps and there are some pics online of the repair kit (which appears to only be available to service centers) that also clarify how the parts go together. It's tempting to take one of the derailleurs as a sacrificial learning tool to try to figure out a DIY approach, particularly if the SC won't take my money to look at my derailleurs (I bought them in the USA instead of Canada). Also I wouldn't have had warranty coverage on them anyway because Campagnolo warranty is only valid if you make the claim to Campagnolo in writing within 8 days of discovering whatever the issue is.. that's a pretty tight timeframe LOL I don't think I've ever jumped to making written warranty claim that fast after noticing a problem with anything and probably never will.

I don't see why the SC won't repair your derailleur. It should not be a problem. Where did you hear you have to contact within 8 days of the problem? That's nonsense lol. Warranty is valid weather you discover it at the beginning or end of warranty coverage. You just have to contact the shop or SC directly like you did. When its a warranty they ask you a copy of invoice. I think since you bought your derailleurs in USA it could be passed on warranty in Canada. Campagnolo North America and Marinoni help each other when needed. I know a guy who bought a part in USA and since Campy USA didn't have the parts in stock, Marinoni did the warranty claim. So its possible they can pass the repair under warranty. Will see what they tell you.

[eajohnson]

Campagnolo says it "To be honoured, claims concerning alleged defects must be submitted in writing within the Warranty Period and within eight days of delivery of the relevant product to the Purchase (in case of patent defects) or from discovery of the defect (in case of latent defects). Failure by the Purchaser to notify the defect within such term will result in forfeiture of any warranty coverage for such defect." Posting anywhere for advice simply establishes the date at which the defect is noticed, probably not the best tactic if one is considering trying to claim warranty. In this case if I had to guess I'd say it's not a manufacturing defect but rather some design or wear and tear situation since the same thing happened with two derailleurs and I've been going over the campy instructions and technical documentation with a fine tooth comb and other than applying less torque than called for on installation, I haven't been doing anything wacky. Another strong possibility is that I'm simply expecting the 'like new' precision and performance of the part to be sustained for more than one season and that campy would consider it to be still OK in it's current state even though it's not acceptable to me because I have so many Campy equipped bikes and know how the shifting should be when it's perfect.

[ferrarista]

Don't sweat it with what is written in the Campy documentation. I've seen people get warranty even if it was expired by a few days. It is not normal that even after one season or 11 000km your derailleur is not working properly. If its taken care of and maintained properly it should not happen. I still don't understand why Campy did a 2 piece setup for the pivot bolt. IMO a one piece like the 2009-2010 would have been less trouble to install and more reliable. I don't know what those engineers think about when they design parts.

[eajohnson]

Don't sweat it with what is written in the Campy documentation. I've seen people get warranty even if it was expired by a few days. It is not normal that even after one season or 11 000km your derailleur is not working properly. If its taken care of and maintained properly it should not happen. I still don't understand why Campy did a 2 piece setup for the pivot bolt. IMO a one piece like the 2009-2010 would have been less trouble to install and more reliable. I don't know what those engineers think about when they design parts.

My guess is that the two piece bolt offers a machined surface to mate with the derailleur hanger, an arrangement that has the potential to offer more precision than the previous one-piece design where is is a c-clip that mates with the hanger. The C clip actually offers a larger mating surface but due to the flexing of the clip only the innermost part of that will actually have any concentration of mating force and for about 1/3 of the circumference there is no contact at all. It would have been nice if the two piece design was user-serviceable. You'd think that a company that unashamedly offers a $300 tool for installing your chain would be able to figure something out even if it required a tool LOL.

[ferrarista]

I think they did it more for weight savings. It is all aluminum compared to the old one piece which is titanium and steel c-clip. I have the c-clip on mine and it mates with the hanger no problem. It has a lot of surface contact as the c-clip is as big as the upper body mount, but you are right that the new bolt offers better precision. Shimano and Sram use a one piece design with no problems. Campy should stick to the KISS philosophy.

[graeme_f_k]

I think they did it more for weight savings. It is all aluminum compared to the old one piece which is titanium and steel c-clip. I have the c-clip on mine and it mates with the hanger no problem. It has a lot of surface contact as the c-clip is as big as the upper body mount, but you are right that the new bolt offers better precision. Shimano and Sram use a one piece design with no problems. Campy should stick to the KISS philosophy.

There's a combination of reasons for the two part bolt.

Weight is one - it's 25% lighter than the Ti bolt in SR, and greater weight savings are offered against the original steel bolt in RE & CH.

It offers, as others have commented, a bigger mating surface against hangers that are getting smaller and softer, and at a time when users are demanding more & more precision in shifting and are (IME) abusing the properties of the derailleur system more & more by persistent cross-chaining, especially in the big-big ranges where there is a great deal of leverage on the upper pivot of the derailleur.

The c-clip system is intrinsically less accurate as the c-clip needs a clearance against the body for it to be possible to slide it into it's slot (so it can rock, fractionally) and also the c-clip has to have a clearance in it's own slot - more movement. Hence there are immediate and potentially long-term gains in accuracy.

Here at the SC in the UK, we seem to have to rework this area repeatedly because of mineral oil contamination on the two o-rings that set the "float" in the assembly ... this softens the o-rings and they become baggy, allowing a lot of movement - typically there is WD40 or similar present (you can smell it in many cases). It's the reason that we specifically recommend here at the SC against spray oils and the use of spray water-dispersants (such as WD40) and is part of the reason that Campagnolo recommend cleaning with weak detergent and water and lubrication with a synthetic oil.

The servicing of the TPB is a SC-only job because done correctly, it requires a check on the rotational alignment of the RD after the replacement is done. It's possible that on locking the two-part bolt together, to over-tighten it which may lead to a distortion in the pivot. That test in itself needs a suitable fitting on a surface plate and an accurate method of measuring the offset from the plate to the cage during rotation. Few shops and very, very few enthusiasts would be likely to have that facility. Additionally, there are "spare" spring locations built into the mounting bush used in various ways in the various derailleurs (not necessarily in production units) - selecting the wrong location for the spring can affect the set-up of the RD and so materially degrade it's performance.

Shimano's TPB assembly is not a trouble-free zone either - I work on all 3 "main" brands regularly and historically have worked also on many others and they all have their oddities.

Warranty is worldwide, so it doesn't matter where a product is bought, any SC is obliged to honour the warranty provided the relevant conditions are met. The Campagnolo warranty requires a problem to be reported and the item to be received by the SC for evaluation before the expiry of the warranty period. It's only in the case of cosmetic problems and / or problems that were discoverable at the point of delivery (patent defects), where a time limit other than the warranty period applies.

[eajohnson]

I think they did it more for weight savings. It is all aluminum compared to the old one piece which is titanium and steel c-clip. I have the c-clip on mine and it mates with the hanger no problem. It has a lot of surface contact as the c-clip is as big as the upper body mount, but you are right that the new bolt offers better precision. Shimano and Sram use a one piece design with no problems. Campy should stick to the KISS philosophy.

There's a combination of reasons for the two part bolt.

Weight is one - it's 25% lighter than the Ti bolt in SR, and greater weight savings are offered against the original steel bolt in RE & CH.

It offers, as others have commented, a bigger mating surface against hangers that are getting smaller and softer, and at a time when users are demanding more & more precision in shifting and are (IME) abusing the properties of the derailleur system more & more by persistent cross-chaining, especially in the big-big ranges where there is a great deal of leverage on the upper pivot of the derailleur.

The c-clip system is intrinsically less accurate as the c-clip needs a clearance against the body for it to be possible to slide it into it's slot (so it can rock, fractionally) and also the c-clip has to have a clearance in it's own slot - more movement. Hence there are immediate and potentially long-term gains in accuracy.

Here at the SC in the UK, we seem to have to rework this area repeatedly because of mineral oil contamination on the two o-rings that set the "float" in the assembly ... this softens the o-rings and they become baggy, allowing a lot of movement - typically there is WD40 or similar present (you can smell it in many cases). It's the reason that we specifically recommend here at the SC against spray oils and the use of spray water-dispersants (such as WD40) and is part of the reason that Campagnolo recommend cleaning with weak detergent and water and lubrication with a synthetic oil.

The servicing of the TPB is a SC-only job because done correctly, it requires a check on the rotational alignment of the RD after the replacement is done. It's possible that on locking the two-part bolt together, to over-tighten it which may lead to a distortion in the pivot. That test in itself needs a suitable fitting on a surface plate and an accurate method of measuring the offset from the plate to the cage during rotation. Few shops and very, very few enthusiasts would be likely to have that facility. Additionally, there are "spare" spring locations built into the mounting bush used in various ways in the various derailleurs (not necessarily in production units) - selecting the wrong location for the spring can affect the set-up of the RD and so materially degrade it's performance.

Shimano's TPB assembly is not a trouble-free zone either - I work on all 3 "main" brands regularly and historically have worked also on many others and they all have their oddities.

Warranty is worldwide, so it doesn't matter where a product is bought, any SC is obliged to honour the warranty provided the relevant conditions are met. The Campagnolo warranty requires a problem to be reported and the item to be received by the SC for evaluation before the expiry of the warranty period. It's only in the case of cosmetic problems and / or problems that were discoverable at the point of delivery (patent defects), where a time limit other than the warranty period applies.

Thanks for such an informative reply, that's really useful information!

[thestedmans82]

My super record rear derailleur has had some top pivot looseness from the time it was new, and it's been a source of continual frustration the last couple years.

Umm, if it's not a stupid question, why, if you saw the problem from new, didn't you query it then with your retailer, drop it in to a Campag ProShop or email your local Service Centre?

There should be only the tiniest amount of play, if any at all. There is a very small tolerance allowed from new and the derailleur can, over a period of years, develop a slight movement just through wear and tear ... but from new, since all Campagnolo RDs use basically the same mechanism at the top, they should all have absolutely minimal movement.

If you still have a proof of purchase and you are less than three years from point of sale, provided that there is no reason to refuse warranty such as crash damage etc, it's possible that warranty could be granted and the top pivot assembly serviced with new o-rings fitted. This is a Service Centre Only job as it requires specific tooling for bolt replacement and for a jig to be used to check play and rotation of the RD in a plane perpendicular to the axis of the bolt post-replacement.

If you are in the UK, we are the only SC here equipped to carry out this work.

Graeme
Have the same issue with a 2014 SR REAR mech which has far too much movement around the axis - is this something I could get looked at / serviced and potentially fixed ( had been scouring the web for s new rear mech)
Thanks
Brian@thestedmans.com


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[oldskoolkool]

I think I have the same issue with my 2012 Super Record rear mech, what sort of rough cost is involved in getting the o-rings/bolt replaced?
Where are you based Greame?

[MisterEd]

Did anyone ever find a solution to this?

I have the same issue with my Chorus rear derailleur which hasn't seen much significant use. (One of my super record derailleurs seems to have a little play while the other does not).

I've tried to show it in the following videos, surely this kind of movement isn't normal? Are there any solutions?

[bm0p700f]

Why would nitrite ring to replace the tub er o rings not be a good option here.