Hookless and updated ISO Standards - Thomas De Gendt Crash

[eins4eins]

Escape collective just released a podcast where they talk with Zipp directly about hookless.
https://escapecollective.com/question-t ... de-safety/

There is also a long article included.

haven't listed to that, but Nathan Schickel from Sram was also guest in the german besenwagen podcast to talk about hookless. It was just a big sram/zipp commercial and gave no transparency at all.
They happily explained the Degendt and Adamietz case, where they can blame external factors. But what about those Movistar failures? Riders from both teams, male and female, had their tires come off. Not only this year.

[Lina]

Escape collective just released a podcast where they talk with Zipp directly about hookless.
https://escapecollective.com/question-t ... de-safety/

There is also a long article included.

haven't listed to that, but Nathan Schickel from Sram was also guest in the german besenwagen podcast to talk about hookless. It was just a big sram/zipp commercial and gave no transparency at all.
They happily explained the Degendt and Adamietz case, where they can blame external factors. But what about those Movistar failures? Riders from both teams, male and female, had their tires come off. Not only this year.

Yeah, all quiet about those failures because they happened in races hardly anyone watches. And of the recent cases we know of imo the most damning case is the one that happened to Baril. The AlUla Tour case that happened to men's team is most likely just a case of trying to ride on a flat tire considering where it happened.

[CJosephB]

Escape collective just released a podcast where they talk with Zipp directly about hookless.
https://escapecollective.com/question-t ... de-safety/

There is also a long article included.

Folk asked for transparency and Zipp have provided it to be fair.

It seemed like a fairly objective account, too. Fair play.

Agreed, there were some really interesting stuff in there too. Zipp confirmed they tested tire retention to 1.5x, just like Cadex and Hunt do. Enve claims 1.8x, but either way all the manufacturers seem to be well above the ISO 1.1x multiplier. What's interesting is the Zipp guys also mentioned the variability in temperature, gauge accuracy, altitude, etc. can add up to a 1.35x influence, so when they test retention at 1.5x the margins of error that a user can make appear to be are well exceeded by the safety of the hookless system.

Zipp also confirmed that during impacts large enough to cause a rim failure their tests showed that the instantaneous increase in pressure is at most 4 psi. So when you hit that pothole you aren't suddenly going up 20 psi. Good to know.

I do find criticism with the double standard, one for consumers and one for pro teams, so hopefully they update their compatibility chart to fall in line with the latest ISO standards. Apparently they are having an internal discussion whether to change it or leave it the same.

Either way I applaud the overall transparency.

At the world tour level where the best riders push these wheels on the limit, you rarely hear from ENVE failures in these racing scenarios (Limit to the past 2-3 years). If there's anybody out there, that would test the limit, it would probably be Pogacar (And to the extent the UAE team). They've been running ENVE (Hookless) for quite some time now. And neither do you hear from Cadex with Team Jayco... Curious about the lower-tiered Pro with Hunt as well, with them releasing their SUB50 limitless.

***Sorry for taking on a slight tangent

[toxin]

This is their 2nd year on enve and just because pog is fast doesn't mean he's stressing the wheel any more than anyone else

[vinc]

Since the hookless rim construction requires lower pressure could there be a human error here? Maybe the tire was inflated over 5 bar and therefore it didn’t hold?

[UrgentDelay]

At the world tour level where the best riders push these wheels on the limit, you rarely hear from ENVE failures in these racing scenarios (Limit to the past 2-3 years). If there's anybody out there, that would test the limit, it would probably be Pogacar (And to the extent the UAE team). They've been running ENVE (Hookless) for quite some time now. And neither do you hear from Cadex with Team Jayco... Curious about the lower-tiered Pro with Hunt as well, with them releasing their SUB50 limitless.

***Sorry for taking on a slight tangent

I believe it's more about the system weight, than the power. Pogacar is 66 kg on a probably sub 7kg bike and doesn't carry multiple water bottles, backpacks or bags. So that's like a 75 kg system weight and I would assume, that the probability of failure increases exponentially, not linearly as the weight increases.

EDIT: and they also have their tires replaced after they show minimal wear and go through multiple wheelsets probably too, that's on top of having their bikes checked by professional mechanics before each race.

[spdntrxi]

Since the hookless rim construction requires lower pressure could there be a human error here? Maybe the tire was inflated over 5 bar and therefore it didn’t hold?

please start at post 1.

[CJosephB]

This is their 2nd year on enve and just because pog is fast doesn't mean he's stressing the wheel any more than anyone else

The opposite can also be true, that he is putting pressure and stressing it out. And for ENVE it simply works. So far...(No jinxing)

[EtoDemerzel]

Escape collective just released a podcast where they talk with Zipp directly about hookless.
https://escapecollective.com/question-t ... de-safety/

There is also a long article included.

haven't listed to that, but Nathan Schickel from Sram was also guest in the german besenwagen podcast to talk about hookless. It was just a big sram/zipp commercial and gave no transparency at all.
They happily explained the Degendt and Adamietz case, where they can blame external factors. But what about those Movistar failures? Riders from both teams, male and female, had their tires come off. Not only this year.

Yeah, all quiet about those failures because they happened in races hardly anyone watches. And of the recent cases we know of imo the most damning case is the one that happened to Baril. The AlUla Tour case that happened to men's team is most likely just a case of trying to ride on a flat tire considering where it happened.

That's a good article.
It's clear that Zipp is in full denial mode and hookless is even more half-assed than I thought. The amount of times Zipp denies current ISO standards, then turns around and uses ISO standards as proof of safety made me dizzy.

The way they "don't recommend NSW for rough races like Strade Bianchi, and Firecrest are tougher" but then turn around and say NSW's are just as impact resistant is the double-sided logic they apply to everything.

First of all, WTF. They don't recommend NSW's for Strade Bianchi? Do they have a disclaimer for consumers on what road surface you can use NSWs?

They don't follow ISO recommendations. But they advise pro teams to follow ISO recommendations.
They now officially have two different standards for safety on what tires will blow off rims. Let that sink in.

They don't advise NSW's for Strade Bianchi, but all their pro team results are on NSW's at Strade Bianchi.

They follow ISO dimensional standards for some measurements, but not for others.
They also say critical dimensions are the tire companies responsibility not theirs.
Passing the buck sounds like a big problem with hookless.

Here's our wheels at ISO standard (or the ISO standards we feel like following) and if the tire blows off bc the tire bead isn't compatible, not our problem.
The further I read, the worse Zipp's logic gets.

The only loser is the consumer. The onus of safety is completely skirted by doubletalk, and if you're picking teeth off the pavement, that's on you or the tire. It could never be them.

[openwheelracing]

Circles back to basic question: outside of lower manufacturing cost and higher yields, what do consumers have to gain? Because hooked wheels do it all...

[EtoDemerzel]

Circles back to basic question: outside of lower manufacturing cost and higher yields, what do consumers have to gain? Because hooked wheels do it all...

"hooked" is a universal standard.

At this time, there is no such thing as "hookless".
They call it hookless but it's not a universal standard. It's a specific Zipp standard that only works with specific tires. Unless you're a pro, on camera. Then, you have to follow a "safer" standard...

[vinc]

Since the hookless rim construction requires lower pressure could there be a human error here? Maybe the tire was inflated over 5 bar and therefore it didn’t hold?

please start at post 1.

I guess that’s not the case then

[eins4eins]

Escape collective just released a podcast where they talk with Zipp directly about hookless.
https://escapecollective.com/question-t ... de-safety/

There is also a long article included.

haven't listed to that, but Nathan Schickel from Sram was also guest in the german besenwagen podcast to talk about hookless. It was just a big sram/zipp commercial and gave no transparency at all.
They happily explained the Degendt and Adamietz case, where they can blame external factors. But what about those Movistar failures? Riders from both teams, male and female, had their tires come off. Not only this year.

Yeah, all quiet about those failures because they happened in races hardly anyone watches. And of the recent cases we know of imo the most damning case is the one that happened to Baril. The AlUla Tour case that happened to men's team is most likely just a case of trying to ride on a flat tire considering where it happened.

That's a good article.
It's clear that Zipp is in full denial mode and hookless is even more half-assed than I thought. The amount of times Zipp denies current ISO standards, then turns around and uses ISO standards as proof of safety made me dizzy.

The way they "don't recommend NSW for rough races like Strade Bianchi, and Firecrest are tougher" but then turn around and say NSW's are just as impact resistant is the double-sided logic they apply to everything.

First of all, WTF. They don't recommend NSW's for Strade Bianchi? Do they have a disclaimer for consumers on what road surface you can use NSWs?

They don't follow ISO recommendations. But they advise pro teams to follow ISO recommendations.
They now officially have two different standards for safety on what tires will blow off rims. Let that sink in.

They don't advise NSW's for Strade Bianchi, but all their pro team results are on NSW's at Strade Bianchi.

They follow ISO dimensional standards for some measurements, but not for others.
They also say critical dimensions are the tire companies responsibility not theirs.
Passing the buck sounds like a big problem with hookless.

Here's our wheels at ISO standard (or the ISO standards we feel like following) and if the tire blows off bc the tire bead isn't compatible, not our problem.
The further I read, the worse Zipp's logic gets.

The only loser is the consumer. The onus of safety is completely skirted by doubletalk, and if you're picking teeth off the pavement, that's on you or the tire. It could never be them.

Their sponsored gravel racers use NSW wheels. On their website forthe wheels they say: Run it on the road, swap tires and use it offroad the next day.
Yet its not recommenend for tough road races?

I liked the 303 and 454 i had and the lifetime warranty is awesome. But they way they handle this, is really dissappointing.

[Spaetzle]

Guys, I own a set of ZIPP 303s that I want to ride tubeless with 32mm Conti 5000 AS TR. Since I am heavy I will have to run them with 4,3 and 4,0 bar.

Would you do that or go for a hooked rim?!

[mikehhhhhhh]

Guys, I own a set of ZIPP 303s that I want to ride tubeless with 32mm Conti 5000 AS TR. Since I am heavy I will have to run them with 4,3 and 4,0 bar.

Would you do that or go for a hooked rim?!

You'll be fine. The pressure is nothing and your delta between tyre and rim is a whopping 9mm.

I also run this combo on my winter bike.