Fractional crossings are need for odd wheels like 2:1 lacing or paired spoke patterns.RivetRider wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:34 pmHey again,
Punched in the numbers on Spocalc and got he same result. I assume that with this Hub/Rim combo that fractional crossings is not applicable to me?
The wheelbuilding thread
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The spirit of this board is to compile and organize wheels and tires related discussions.
If a new wheel tech is released, (say for example, TPU tubes, a brand new tire, or a new rim standard), feel free to start the discussion in the popular "Road". Your topic will eventually be moved here!
The spirit of this board is to compile and organize wheels and tires related discussions.
If a new wheel tech is released, (say for example, TPU tubes, a brand new tire, or a new rim standard), feel free to start the discussion in the popular "Road". Your topic will eventually be moved here!
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14g plain gauge spokes ha e to be the same weight as each other regardless of brand. 2.0 mm diameter stainless steel has the same density
To fix replace all spokes with sapim race or dt swiss competition and build it properly.
To fix replace all spokes with sapim race or dt swiss competition and build it properly.
It'd probably be best if the spokes are all the same kind and age.pier11 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:14 am9 broken spokes. Heads lost. 8 from DS.
6 "pushing" DS spokes (heads in). Then 2 pulling spokes DS. Then 1 NDS.
1 or 2 spokes per long ride, not every ride.
Broken spoke makes wheel out of true every time. Requires to disengage rear (rim) brake completely to be able to continue ride.
Wheel (rear): 28h, 2x, 2500km
Rim: Alex R500 (20x20mm approx.; I guess R450 rim is the same thing.)
Hub: Novatec F162SB (I think)
Spokes: no name 14g straight guage (7 gram per 285mm spoke - much lighter than DT Champion, only 0.5 gram havier than DT Comp).
Rider: 72kg/160lbs, recreational rides 100km+. No races, no spints. Not often out of saddle.
I replaced broken spokes each time with DT Comp (Ritche branded). It never broke yet.
On 9 count I replaced all remaining 19 spokes with DT Comp. 250 km after - good so far.
Shall I attribute such failure to low quality spokes? Anything else is going on?
20191106_082445.jpg
Screenshot_2019-11-11-20-32-21.jpg
Breaking spokes means there is something wrong with the wheel.
How about a picture?
Remember that it's more important to achieve good tension than a perfectly true wheel. I broke a rim once obsessing over true when the rim was simply beyond "perfect true"-ability.
I'd also turn the elbows around on one side. I don't like it when pulling spokes are on the same side of the flanges. It means the rim moves sideways when torque is applied or released.
Get a cheap spoke tension meter. When spokes are crossed its almost impossible to "hear" the difference in tone with a tap test.
Update: 31 months ago rebuilt rear wheel after reading this entire thread, wheel still rolling true, thanks to all, particularly the regulars.
Earlier this year, finally got around to rebuilding #1 bike rear wheel, still rolling true as well.
Regarding cxray nds choice, primarily for lighter spoke stretches more at same tension reasons, which the laser would do same, however, the cxray lays a bit flatter at the cross, and they (still do) look bitchin'
WI T11 hub, black; Hed C2 rim, 28 holes; Sapim race ds, cxray nds, 2x; even tension over dead true, both run out <.2mm
Earlier this year, finally got around to rebuilding #1 bike rear wheel, still rolling true as well.
Regarding cxray nds choice, primarily for lighter spoke stretches more at same tension reasons, which the laser would do same, however, the cxray lays a bit flatter at the cross, and they (still do) look bitchin'
WI T11 hub, black; Hed C2 rim, 28 holes; Sapim race ds, cxray nds, 2x; even tension over dead true, both run out <.2mm
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Using thinner spokes because they stretch more does not improve reliability. Thin spokes make the wheel less stiff so it flexes more and the length changes the spokes see are larger. Fatigue is caused by length changes. The higher those length changes are the more fatigue the spokes see. Now the wheel may be stiff enough to be relaible for you but it wrong to say that is more relaible because you have made the wheel more flexible.
If what you say was true we would not build 36 spoke wheels with thicker spokes for 140kg riders.
If what you say was true we would not build 36 spoke wheels with thicker spokes for 140kg riders.
What I wrote "...lighter spoke stretches more at same tension..." is true.
Do thicker spoke ds impact reliability positively (vs cxray both sides)?
Any road, at the time (it's been a few years), I accepted case for lighter spokes nds, as made by respected wheel builder. Looks like same builder now goes 3x ds, 2x nds for same setup, 28 hole Hed C2 and WI T11 hub, not sure if he's still using heavier spokes ds (and don't care).
Do thicker spoke ds impact reliability positively (vs cxray both sides)?
Any road, at the time (it's been a few years), I accepted case for lighter spokes nds, as made by respected wheel builder. Looks like same builder now goes 3x ds, 2x nds for same setup, 28 hole Hed C2 and WI T11 hub, not sure if he's still using heavier spokes ds (and don't care).
The fact that lighter spokes stretch more is clear ... but this feature doesn't make wheels sturdier, stiffer and/or more reliable, just lighter.Spiduhman wrote: ↑Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:07 amWhat I wrote "...lighter spoke stretches more at same tension..." is true.
Do thicker spoke ds impact reliability positively (vs cxray both sides)?
Any road, at the time (it's been a few years), I accepted case for lighter spokes nds, as made by respected wheel builder. Looks like same builder now goes 3x ds, 2x nds for same setup, 28 hole Hed C2 and WI T11 hub, not sure if he's still using heavier spokes ds (and don't care).
I personnaly like CXray/aerolite spokes ... i have only build a few wheelset with other spokes during the last 20 years (I am not a professionnal builder, so I build for my own needs and some friends) ... but I am also a fervent supporter of "more spokes", I mean I prefer 2 more spokes than heavier ones.
My go-to aero light wheelset has 24/28 spokes, not 20/24 as the standard aero wheelset and I find them stiffer (and snappier) than the same rims with thicker spokes, but only 20/24. I even have a off-road 29" wheelset with flexy light rims that only retrued once in more than 10 years, and it was after a big crash, but 32/32 spokes.
In my opinion, if you need a stiffer/sturdier wheel, then you need (for the same hub/rim combo) : first more spokes, then thicker spokes.
I agree with 24/28 and Aerolites vs 20/24 and something thicker like Aerocomps. Wheels feel snappier and are likely stronger.Etienne wrote:
My go-to aero light wheelset has 24/28 spokes, not 20/24 as the standard aero wheelset and I find them stiffer (and snappier) than the same rims with thicker spokes, but only 20/24.
In my opinion, if you need a stiffer/sturdier wheel, then you need (for the same hub/rim combo) : first more spokes, then thicker spokes.
Seems DT Swiss goes the other way with its PR21 oxics though: 20/24 with Aerocomps.
Track hubs advice please.
Complete ignorance here. Do they have to be 32h? I understand lateral stiffness is a big deal in track wheels but if I wanted to build some for road single speed duties as well then are there other options?
Likely rims would be 40 to 50mm carbon and probably tubs, because, well why not?
I’ve seen some cheap Miche hubs but they’re pretty weighty. Adding 32 spokes to each, even C X-rays would make for some seriously heavy hoops.
Cost is unfortunately a consideration.
Advice on other alternatives gratefully received!
Complete ignorance here. Do they have to be 32h? I understand lateral stiffness is a big deal in track wheels but if I wanted to build some for road single speed duties as well then are there other options?
Likely rims would be 40 to 50mm carbon and probably tubs, because, well why not?
I’ve seen some cheap Miche hubs but they’re pretty weighty. Adding 32 spokes to each, even C X-rays would make for some seriously heavy hoops.
Cost is unfortunately a consideration.
Advice on other alternatives gratefully received!
I'm not an expert but track wheels are very narrow and in the rear at least subjected to serious torque when taking off from a standstill.Nixster wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:55 pmTrack hubs advice please.
Complete ignorance here. Do they have to be 32h? I understand lateral stiffness is a big deal in track wheels but if I wanted to build some for road single speed duties as well then are there other options?
Likely rims would be 40 to 50mm carbon and probably tubs, because, well why not?
I’ve seen some cheap Miche hubs but they’re pretty weighty. Adding 32 spokes to each, even C X-rays would make for some seriously heavy hoops.
Cost is unfortunately a consideration.
Advice on other alternatives gratefully received!
If you don't need the torque resistance and aero benefit in a velodrome then use fewer spokes and common rims (wider).
Thanks for advise, gentlemenalcatraz wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:42 amRemember that it's more important to achieve good tension than a perfectly true wheel. I broke a rim once obsessing over true when the rim was simply beyond "perfect true"-ability.
Get a cheap spoke tension meter. When spokes are crossed its almost impossible to "hear" the difference in tone with a tap test.
I've rebuilt the wheel with DT Swiss Competition spokes. Hope it's much better now.
110kgf DS for narrow shallow rim I put.
My first build.
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I built with lower spoke counts for track wheels. 32h is just what popular.Nixster wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:55 pmTrack hubs advice please.
Complete ignorance here. Do they have to be 32h? I understand lateral stiffness is a big deal in track wheels but if I wanted to build some for road single speed duties as well then are there other options?
Likely rims would be 40 to 50mm carbon and probably tubs, because, well why not?
I’ve seen some cheap Miche hubs but they’re pretty weighty. Adding 32 spokes to each, even C X-rays would make for some seriously heavy hoops.
Cost is unfortunately a consideration.
Advice on other alternatives gratefully received!
Light cheap track dont exist. mack hubs are light and 200 eurosfor a pair. Get those.
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First time trying to build my own wheels.
Pacenti Forza Aysmmetric Disc 650b rims
Shimano 105 R7070 hubs 32h
Sapim race spokes
Dt swiss brass nipples
Roger Mussens book
Spoke wrench
$300 total
First set of rubber for these will be WTB Horizons I got for a song. Will look at upgrading to Rene Herse after they wear. Wheels are going on a Black Mountain Road+ I'm building up as a general adventure and century ride bike.
See attached for a lacing photo and part weights
Pacenti Forza Aysmmetric Disc 650b rims
Shimano 105 R7070 hubs 32h
Sapim race spokes
Dt swiss brass nipples
Roger Mussens book
Spoke wrench
$300 total
First set of rubber for these will be WTB Horizons I got for a song. Will look at upgrading to Rene Herse after they wear. Wheels are going on a Black Mountain Road+ I'm building up as a general adventure and century ride bike.
See attached for a lacing photo and part weights
Last edited by Smitty2k1 on Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.