The wheelbuilding thread

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
AxelBrawn
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:49 am

by AxelBrawn

Thanks Zen, much appreciated.

It gave them same calcs as the DT swiss one, so I think I'm on track.

I was going to get a wheel builder here (Melbourne) to sort it out for me, however they seem to be charging a king's ransom for spokes & build.

$3.50AUD per DT Rev spoke and $80AUD for the build.

Can yourecommend an online store for Sapim spokes that will ship to AUS?

KLabs
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:29 am

by KLabs

Hi AxelBrawn, have a look here ...
CxRay ... http://www.bikehubstore.com/category-s/131.htm
Pillar ... http://www.bdopcycling.com/Pillar-Spokes.asp#PSR1422

For the Rear with the DT240S hub/A23 rim ... although with 73Kg rider weight 28h 2xDS/NDS will be fine, 3xDS/NDS will build a wheel that is stronger, more compliant (comfortable), with better torque drive.
For the Front ... 28h 1x or 2x will be fine ... even 0x will be fine but might look a little busy (there are no issues with a DT240S front hub that I am aware of ... it is an excellent hub)

Brisbane wheelbuilder ... Ashley McGowan ... http://www.highgearacing.com/
Sydney wheelbuilder ... Greg Ryan ... http://www.twebikewheels.com.au/

thanks KL :)

AxelBrawn
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:49 am

by AxelBrawn

Thanks KL for the info.

I've used the calc provided and given I'll used 2x for the front and 3x for the rear I need:

Front = 28 x 290mm spokes

Rear = 14 x 297mm & 14 x 295.7 - however some spokes only come in 2mm increments on even numbers. Better to round up or down? Or just get 28 x 296mm for the rear?

Cheers

KLabs
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:29 am

by KLabs

Hi AxelBrawn, yes for the rear the spoke calcs say NDS = 297, DS = 296 ... it is better to round up, so 298 and 296 would be better but 28 x 297mm should work (but it is odd not even) ...

thanks KL :)

MarkThailand
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:19 pm

by MarkThailand

I currently have four wheels, all using the White Industries hubs. All were custom built by Richard of Prowheelbuilder.com.

Two are for 10-speed drivetrains (SRAM Red) and two are for 10-/11-speed drivetrains (Shimano 9070).

Normally I try not to be an early adopter but I decided last year that I just had to try the new Shimano 11-speed DI2 for my next custom bike...

My three training wheelsets all use HED. C2 clincher rims.

1) Decent city road training
Front wheel: WI MI5 hub, 28 Sapim CX-Ray spokes laced 2x, DT Swiss Prolock Hex nipples, Vittoria Open Pave EVO CG 24mm tire, Latex tubes
Rear wheel: WI MI5 hub, 32 Sapim CX-Ray spokes laced 3x, DT Swiss Prolock Hex nipples, Vittoria Open Pave EVO CG 24c tire, Latex tubes

2) Seaside/Countryside
Front wheel: WI MI5 hub, 32 Sapim CX-Ray spokes laced radial, brass nipples, Continental 4000s 25c tire, Vittoria Ultralite butyl tubes.
Rear wheel: WI MI5 hub, 32 Sapim CX-Ray spokes laced 3x, brass nipples, Continental 4000s 25c tire, Vittoria Ultralite butyl tubes.

3) Countryside
Front wheel: WI T11 hub, 32 Sapim CX-Ray spokes laced 3x, brass nipples, Vittoria Open Corsa CX 25c, Vittoria Ultralite butyl tubes.
Rear wheel: WI T11 hub, 32 Sapim CX-Ray spokes laced 3x, brass nipples, Vittoria Open Corsa CX 25c, Vittoria Ultralite butyl tubes.


My climbing/fair day/indulgence/now favorite wheelset uses the ENVE 3.4 Tubular rims with Veloflex tires

4) Favorite
Front wheel: WI T11 hub, 20 Sapim CX-Ray spokes laced 2x, Veloflex Carbon Black 23c.
Rear wheel: WI T11 hub, 24 Sapim CX-Ray spokes laced 2x, Veloflex Arenberg 25c.

A bit about myself:

Well, I am fat at 195lbs, have ridden seriously for only 2-3 years, am a spinner/masher at an average cadence of 90-95 rpm, am 44 year old with a partially torn right ACL due to skiing, rarely get out of the saddle to pedal, do not produce massive watts with a FTP of about 175, and generally ride solo 80-100 km in 3-4 hours on both Saturday and Sundays as my exercise training rides. I try to do a solo centuries in 5-6 hours on coastal roads about once a month.

In the past year, I have ridden about 8000 km on one training wheel set for the 10-speed bike and another 2000 km on the other training wheel set for the other 10-speed powermeter bike, without any issues with the wheels and they have stayed completely true and round - and I have ridden on rough countryside roads and salt farm roads where the salt crystals have caused punctures.

So far, I have only ridden about 1000 km on my WI T11 wheel sets for the 11-speed DI2 bike and have not noticed any spoke-unwinding issues nor flexing issues - but that might be because I am fairly gentle on my wheels.

I was thinking about another wheelset for my 11-speed bike so, after reading a thread about problems with 11-speed wheels and hubs, I sent a couple of emails regarding hub selection to Richard of Prowheelbuilder.com, and a side email to Jason Woznick of Fairwheelbikes and to Wheelbuilder.com.

I would like to share excerpts of the email conversations:
________________________________

From John Olson of Wheelbuilder.com:

"The ORC-UL has been very delayed. We were supposed to get them in March, but have not really seen any. I would look the CK at this point because we really have no idea when the UL would be ready for builds. I find CK to be very reliable. I found the ELF to not be very durable for larger riders. They are finicky and I would not recommend them to riders over 165 pounds. Also they have some play in them and if you overclamp you can destroy the bearings."

From Jason Woznick of Fairwheelbikes (he is one of the authors of the FWB 11-speed hub review):

"I like both the Alchemy (Mark: ORC-UL) and the King (Mark: CK45), but would probably choose the King over the Alchemy. If the rim was not so stiff then there might be more of a difference but in this case the rim (Mark: ENVE 6.7) is so stiff that the hub really doesn’t matter all that much. I’d choose the durability/reliability of the King over the Alchemy.

I’d also recommend the DT240 over the King. The reason is that it has a better left/right tension ratio which helps keep non-drive spokes from going slack better than the King. You also get the same durability/reliability of the King, but with a hub that can be serviced at any shop in the country. Most shops do not have the proper tools to fully service a king hub."

From Richard at Prowheelbuiler.com:

"So my thoughts on White Industries versus Chris King, I have listed a pro’s and con’s list below for you to review. Please keep in mind that both are great hubs and although there are several differences none will be a huge difference in the next 5 to 6 years and both hubs can be kept in service well past 10 years (although the White Ind T11 will last longer).

White Ind Pro’s
Non proprietary bearings
Side load adjustable
Titanium driver body
Cromoly axle 15mm
Large Ball Bearings
Non shouldered axle design
Lowest drag driver mech.
Great value

White Ind Con’s
Heavy (29 grams over ck r45)
Set screw collet

Chris King Pro’s
Non radially loading driver mechanism
Side load adjustable (with threaded collet)
Quick engagement
Multiple color options
Light (29 grams lighter than wi t11)
Non shouldered axle design

Chris King Con’s
Very high drag driver mech.
Proprietary bearings ($45 each)
Proprietary tools needed for service.
Aluminum driver body.
Expensive

The article you reference (Mark: I referred him to the FWB 11-speed hub review) mostly speaks about flange diameter and placement. As I build with a lot of different hubs I have found that this makes far less of a difference than the article would have you believe. But that being said the T11 is better than the R45 in this as well however I would definitely (Mark sp) not let that be a concern. Hope this helps. Thank you."

I also sent an email to White Industries and got back the following emails. I am impressed with their level of customer service in their willingness to reply to an email from a random person - their response is probably a bit biased towards WI but understandable:

From Lynette Toepfer of White Industries:

"I pulled up the blog (Mark: I referred them to the FWB 11-speed article) and read through it. As you were able to read there are a lot of challenges with the new 11 speed system that Shimano introduced and it has been a difficulty for all hub manufacturers. The bracing angle isn't going to be as good as with the ten speed cassette which is true, however, we have had the same offset for the Campy 11 speed hubs for the last two years with absolutely no problems so we are confident in the design. As far as comparing against the other manufacturers, I'll have to call Fairwheel on Monday to question them. The only other manufacture that has a compatible hub in production is DT with an 3.5mm vs our 3.3mm as reported by them. I'm not sure how they can compare the production hubs specifications against the other manufactures 11 speed hubs that have not been introduced or manufactured as if yet. It seems only fair that comparisons would be finished product to finished product. Like I said, I'll give them a call when I'm back in the office."

and

"I don't think I got back to you after receiving your follow up e-mail. Thank you for being such a supporter of our products. I’m delighted that you have been using our hubs in your wheels. Rich is a good guy and puts a lot of time and effort into his wheel builds.

A quick comment about the Campy 11 speed, while it is true that the largest cog cantilevers over the shell a bit, the offset still needed to be different for Campy vs Shimano (10 speed) for clearance reasons. This Campy configuration was even needed for our H2 model previous to the H3 so this same bracing angle has been in production for many years and we have never had one problem. We are confident in the integrity of the hub and wheel if properly laced."

_________________________________

Like I said, I am impressed with White Industries customer service and have used their hubs without any problems. I also like that she knew of Richard of Prowheelbuilder.com.

Well, all three builders sell more than one hub (CK45, WI T-11, and DT240, with only FWB having the ORC-UL now), so figure that asking all three might be able to get a combined, unbiased opinion. I do have a good history with Richard so I would tend to give him more credit - and he does probably build at least 1000 wheel sets a year.

I was originally pretty much set on choosing the CK45 hub for my 11-speed bike until the last email from Richard.

What do you all think?

Mark

AxelBrawn
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:49 am

by AxelBrawn

I'm still very much undecided on lacing pattern for the rear. (2x or 3x)

The driving force for these wheels is performance rather than comfort but I also want a "strong" set of wheels. They will be used for road and crit racing and hopefully light enough for climbing.

I'm 73kg with a max sprint of 1250W

From what I gather 3x is more comfortable and stronger and 2x is lighter and stiffer

Based on that I'm leaning towards 2x

I'd appreciate any input

Cheers

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Zen Cyclery
Shop Owner
Posts: 1244
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:27 am
Location: McCall, ID
Contact:

by Zen Cyclery

@AxelBrawn- There won't be any noticeable difference between 2x and 3x. Either one would be just fine on this build.

eric
Posts: 2196
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:47 pm
Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
Contact:

by eric

Mark- I'd wait on the ORC-UL until they have been out for a while. Not that I don't think they know what they are doing or will make a poor product but just on general principles. Early adopters have to be willing to deal with problems. I normally wait until a product has been generally available for 6 months or so before I get it. That way any initial bugs get worked out.

That leaves White. They roll well, they're well made and they have good customer service.

WheelBuilderOrg
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 12:46 am
Contact:

by WheelBuilderOrg

@AxelBrawn- I think that 2 or 3 cross would be suitable. I would think that 3x would be stiffer, on paper at least. However both lacing patterns will yield similar rigidity in the real world.

As far as the hubs are concerned, I think it really depends on what you preference is. If serviceability is priority number one, the 240 or T11 would be good options. If you want to shave weight, then the ORC UL is a hard option to beat.

KLabs
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:29 am

by KLabs

Hi WheelBuilderOrg, not to offend, actually 2x will be a little Laterally Stiffer than 3x, but 3x will have better Torque Drive, be more Compliant/Comfortable, and be a little stronger build. The 28H rear wheel, that AxelBrawn is building, should provide sufficient Lateral Stiffness with the DT240S hub that he is using, especially as he is only 73Kg in weight ...

According to my calculations a 28H DT240S/A23 build should be about as LS as a 24H ORC UL/A23 build ... and 2x or 3x will determine the ride and drive characteristics of the wheel :)

thanks KL :)

WheelBuilderOrg
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 12:46 am
Contact:

by WheelBuilderOrg

Hey KLabs. No offense taken. I should have clarified that I meant stiffer from a torsional aspect.

I am interested though, under deflection test how much stiffer is a 2x setup than 3x, all components the same? I would be interested to see some tests to that we can add some information to our site.


WheelBuilderOrg
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 12:46 am
Contact:

by WheelBuilderOrg

@KLabs- Thanks for all of the quality links. I think the Roues Artisanales and Sheldon Brown ones are my favorite.

Great info KLabs!

orion
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 6:01 pm

by orion

I've been lurking around here and have appreciated all of the wisdom that's been posted. I was hoping you guys could help me out with some advice on a new front wheel. First some background:

I'm 185 lbs, though I tend to fluctuate betwen 175 and 185 depending on the time of year. I don't have any ambitions to race, but I do appreciate performance, and I don't mind investing in some nice gear if it will last me a long time. I do a lot of climbing in the Bay Area.


-I had talked to a shop a while ago and they recommended an Alchemy ELF laced to a Hed C2 with Sapim CX-Rays. I've seen some people say that that's not the best setup for someone over 165 lbs though. Should I be looking at something else? Or, if that setup is a good one, how many spokes should I be looking for and is radial lacing OK?

-I have an urge to build the wheel myself, but I've only built one wheel years ago. It went great, but it was just a vanilla 3x 32h job. Is building a wheel with fewer (aero) spokes laced radially dramatically more difficult? Do I need a tensiometer or would I be fine with just a ts2.2 and spoke wrenches? I realize it would just be cheaper to have a shop build it, but I miss building things and would enjoy doing it if I can do a job at least comparable to a good shop.

Any insights would be greatly appreciated.

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Zen Cyclery
Shop Owner
Posts: 1244
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:27 am
Location: McCall, ID
Contact:

by Zen Cyclery

@orion- That sounds like an awesome build to me. I think the ELF is a great option for heavier riders simply because if the widely stanced flanges and bearings. Radial would be just fine too, just make sure to go elbows in/heads out.

This would be a great build for you to do though. Radial lacing is the simplest of all lacing patterns and since you've already built one set of wheels, you should be able to lace this one up no problem.

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