boyd 60mm vs Soul C6.0 [carbon clincher]

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
432r
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by 432r

So both these companies do a carbon clincher at around the same price now in the wide 23mm rim width.
I think i want to get a set.

I am guessing the only difference really lies in the hubs. does anyone know much about either of these wheel sets?
which is better? stiffer? better braking? i know Boyd is now available in 11sp hub but that doesn't really impact me.

http://2013.bikesoul.com/c6-0/

http://www.boydcycling.com/products/60mm-clincher.html

1610g Soul
1660g Boyd

dcl10
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by dcl10

The rims are different too despite their similar weight and depth. The soul looks like a firecrest knockoff, while the boyd is less blunt and has more of a super toroidal shape. I listened to a zipp presentation at training camp when these were first released and I remember Josh saying that even slight variations in the firecrest shape produced wheels that were slower than previous versions at most yaw angles. So I'd personally be leery of anything just made to look like a firecrest rim, and I know Boyd did actual wind tunnel testing.

soulbike
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by soulbike

Our SOULs are narrower by 0.5mm at brake track, deeper by 2mm, lighter by 50g, wider bracing angle hubset, BOTH untested in wind tunnels, the rest will be conjecture.... Our hubsets are also available now for 11speed.

spartan
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by spartan

not tested in the windtunnel :roll:

Soulbike, explain why your wheels are so expensive then.

november cycles new rail have been, weight less in theory and cheaper to boot...

Rim Weight: 475g - 495g (targeted)
Wheelset Weight: 1525g (targeted)
Price: $1285. Pre-order $1145 (limited availability for pre-order)

http://www.novemberbicycles.com/rail/
Current Rides:

2017 Giant TCR Advanced SL 0 DI2 9150

kulivontot
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by kulivontot

Probably because every other non-open mold carbon wheelset is expensive? Comparing next years product pricing to last years product is a ludicrous effort.

432r
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Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:09 pm

by 432r

Interesting point about variations to the firecrest shape. This (unfortunately) doesn't make things any easier considering neither have been wind tested.

One observation (pure aesthetic) from pics is that the carbon pattern is different. The Soul's throwing a more marble effect and the Boyd a more plain black carbon.

It would be good to hear someone chime in on the Boyd hubs.. sounds like the soul hubs are pretty solid from doing a search.

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BobDopolina
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by BobDopolina

So ZIPP says that anything that varies from their patented shape by even a fraction of a mm isn't worth the effort?

I wonder what NASA thinks?
BDop Cycling Co., Ltd.
www.bdopcycling.com

coachboyd
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by coachboyd

432r wrote:Interesting point about variations to the firecrest shape. This (unfortunately) doesn't make things any easier considering neither have been wind tested.

One observation (pure aesthetic) from pics is that the carbon pattern is different. The Soul's throwing a more marble effect and the Boyd a more plain black carbon.

It would be good to hear someone chime in on the Boyd hubs.. sounds like the soul hubs are pretty solid from doing a search.


We have a 3k weave on all of our carbon wheels. I am in the process of having some very cool photos done for our website and catalogue.
As for the hubs, that is something we focused on the most with the new line. We used to use a very similar hub to the Soul wheels but moved away from the six pawl design as the pawls were kind of small and could stick. So we now have four oversized pawls for very solid engagement. We also moved the left bearing out on the axle for added stability and added a pre-load adjustment. The hubs are optimized for flange geometry based on whatever configuration you are using and we also focused on tension balance between drive and non-drive side. One of the biggest benefits is that we double cross the spokes on both sides of the rear wheel for a much better transfer of torque.
Here's a bit more info on our hubs:
http://www.boydcycling.com/hubs/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by coachboyd on Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.boydcycling.com The Handcrafted Revolution

coachboyd
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by coachboyd

BobDopolina wrote:So ZIPP says that anything that varies from their patented shape by even a fraction of a mm isn't worth the effort?

I wonder what NASA thinks?


I know what they think about dimples.
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/ae ... 0215.shtml
http://www.boydcycling.com The Handcrafted Revolution

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BobDopolina
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by BobDopolina

^^^Coles notes, please.
BDop Cycling Co., Ltd.
www.bdopcycling.com

dvincere
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by dvincere

Mechanical Engineer with substantial aerospace experience here including at JSC in Webster for NASA

The short of it? Dimples help flow, especially at a velocity high enough to be near transitional Reynolds numbers, remain attached to the surface of the object WHEN THE OBJECT IS BLUNT. Airfoils do not receive benefit from this and nor do lower Reynolds numbers. Most people would argue that rims are shaped like airfoils and therefore receive no benefit from dimples. Although, it is clear from the trend towards increasing rim widths that the primary cause of drag is due to flow separation and not skin friction, ergo dimples could theoretically help. One can surmise that increasing the width of the rim is actually a much better mechanism to achieve increased flow adhesion and it should be sufficient without dimples. I would not say dimples are simply of no benefit based on my knowledge in the field of fluid dynamics, however, this seems to be opposed to the opinion coachboyd has formed based on the material. Moreso it appears dimples are a poor substitution for a better shaped rim. Also to note, the best shaped rim for aerodynamics does not mean its the best for other purposes, such as handling, weight, strength, etc.

I've never done wind tunnel testing in my tunnels on bicycle parts under cycling conditions but I'd be very interested if someone could produce a paper showing typical Reynolds numbers rims are exposed to as it would clarify a lot of the marketing claims out there. Has anyone seen an attempt at demonstrating this?


EDIT: thinking about it more, I think the Reynolds numbers may be too low for dimples to help.
Last edited by dvincere on Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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BobDopolina
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by BobDopolina

^^^ I'd like to see that data, too and even would invest some to facilitate.

Also, dimples are about THE RIM. What are the impacts on the WHEEL as a system? My guess is that it is equal to or less that spokes/ spoke count...and then there's the fork. And that pesky rider....


Data anyone?
BDop Cycling Co., Ltd.
www.bdopcycling.com

coachboyd
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by coachboyd

BobDopolina wrote:
Data anyone?


I am working on that right now. We are going to work on sending bike+rider+various wheels into the wind tunnel with the only variable changing being the wheels. We'll then plot the drag graphs based on that vs using just a wheel by itself.
http://www.boydcycling.com The Handcrafted Revolution

dvincere
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by dvincere

Coachboyd, I would absolutely fall head over heels in love with you if you could do tests with the same rims and hubs changing only spoke count and lacing configurations. It would be a dream come true if you could get them to estimate the Reynolds numbers of the flow over even one configuration.

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BobDopolina
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by BobDopolina

I'd know I'd interested in data that was independent and supported by real world results as opposed to the absolute claims made in ad copy by many of the big players.
BDop Cycling Co., Ltd.
www.bdopcycling.com

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