Reverse periodization (with work out plans)

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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devinci
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by devinci

You can smash the L6 for 30-20-15-10 sec with longer or shorter recoveries in between depending on what you want to work on.

Do confused things, L4=threshold/FTP work. L4 efforts can be 10-30min long in training. So 3x15 and 2x20 are L4/FTP/threshold work. Back when I was doing these with HR, I was shooting to finish my 20min efforts at my TT heartrate. Search some recent posts in the training section, I have given some general guidelines for 2x20 by HR.

Here is what I'd do

day 1: L6, micro-intervals, tabata, 30/30, etc
day 2: 2x20
day 3: SST ride outside, on the trails, aiming at going fast but steady, putting out some good work, maybe going a bit faster on the climbs.
day 4: off
day 5: L6
day 6: SST (as above) or 2x20
day 7: off

of course this is very general and should be worked on/modified as the off season progresses. The more races come close, less L6, more L4 then less L4, some L5 and SST

hope that helps

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Kastrup
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by Kastrup

That sounds like a pretty solid plan for me to try out. Thanks a lot!

It seems to me that there is quite a big difference between L4 and L6 work, shouldn't there be some work for in between? I suppose some of it will come with the SST work but shouldn't i worry too much about that?

/Emil
"Stay cool and try to survive" A. Klier to the other members of the Garmin classics squad the night before P-R.

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devinci
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by devinci

it wont come from the SST work. SST is the sweet spot training, between tempo (L3) and threshold (L4) where you can spend a good amount of time and get the best bang for your training buck. Its a sustained intensity. Like I said, its not an all out, TT style effort. Its a controled pace where you can sit for a good chunk of time. What I'd do is ride some nice single tracks for 1h at SST or 2x30min at SST, going fast on technical portion, climbing fast but not all out.

The inbetween work you are refering to is typically call vo2max power or L5 intensity, from 2 to 8min durations, generally. This kind of intensity shouldnt be done right now and is best kept for race preparation. You can start the L5 work 6-8 weeks before you main races.

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Kastrup
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by Kastrup

I think it's finally coming together for me now :) I'll to dome research, try it out and see how it works!
"Stay cool and try to survive" A. Klier to the other members of the Garmin classics squad the night before P-R.

haakonbs
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by haakonbs

How do I build an annual training plan based on reverse periodization? Do you block your training as well?

msl1985
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by msl1985

Just because i produce high numbers, it doesn't mean that i know a lot about training. I have attached my latest 30min. test. I use a Quarq powermeter. I have more files if you want. :-)
I have been riding a lot of UCI races the last 3-4 years.
Attachments
Skærmbillede 2012-12-01 kl. 10.31.00 AM.png

haakonbs
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by haakonbs

msl1985 wrote:Just because i produce high numbers, it doesn't mean that i know a lot about training. I have attached my latest 30min. test. I use a Quarq powermeter. I have more files if you want. :-)
I have been riding a lot of UCI races the last 3-4 years.


Do you block? Reverse periodization? Nice numbers :D

KWalker
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by KWalker

The problem with focusing solely on AWC is that it is inversely tied to how you metabolize o2 and utilize glycogen at lower intensities as well and can't be ratcheted up as much of for long (and also remains relatively genetically fixed).

I don't see the point of reverse periodization for anything but events with long TT's/climbs as a target, the Pro Tour, or triathlon. The top end work is too far out from your target event and the CTL doesn't necessarily count the same (it does in numbers, but is much, much harder). I'd much rather do a variety of threshold work. You can also still quickly add some aerobic fitness on top of that, provided that that is your weakness (i.e. high decoupling at target event pace).
Don't take me too seriously. The only person that doesn't hate Froome.
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msl1985
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by msl1985

haakonbs wrote:
msl1985 wrote:Just because i produce high numbers, it doesn't mean that i know a lot about training. I have attached my latest 30min. test. I use a Quarq powermeter. I have more files if you want. :-)
I have been riding a lot of UCI races the last 3-4 years.


Do you block? Reverse periodization? Nice numbers :D


I have been doing "the old way" with 2 or 3 base periods. 2 build periods, 1 peak and 1 racing period. I haven't been training above Z4 before the second build periode before.
Next season i'm planning too put in some Z4 and Z5 intervals from the first base periode and train with a lower volume.

haakonbs
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Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:56 am

by haakonbs

Thanks. I'm gonna try it myself. Starting with L5/L6 i mid January. It might work :)

gummee
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by gummee

Only bit of advice I can offer is that I've come out of winters much fitter than when I went in because of a lot of multi-hour trainer rides and actually lost fitness thru the spring when I could get back outside. ...so be careful!

I haven't been able to get the group of guys together to get me motivated to do 3.5hr trainer rides in the last bunch of years, so I've been doing a 'normal' buildup thru the winter. Despite lots of zone 2 stuff, I think its important to have at least one day of intensity/week.

[/random post] :D

M

outlaw105fan
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by outlaw105fan

I can vouch for some of the basic concepts of reverse periodization. I have spent the majority of the "off" season doing more hard stuff and less base. I'm no expert by any means but it makes no sense to let your fitness drop and be required to rebuild. Personally I only need a few days to refresh my mind - I'll let everyone else takes the weeks and months off. I can attest that I am much stronger after hitting the off-season hard. I don't claim to have a specific combination but I've done plenty of sprints, 30s, 1m, 5m and 20m intervals, as well as some longer 100+ mile rides.

The previous season I spent working threshold with many bouts of 2x20s for the majority of the off-season... Those helped but not nearly as much as what I've done this season. I don't know the physiology of what all of this does but I can say, without a doubt, that I'm faster and more fit... on fewer hours.

alexgonzalezmi
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by alexgonzalezmi

My first post. Hi everyone. Back to the topic. In the past I've done the typical Friel base, build, peak, blah. In the last few weeks since CX finished up I've started training a bit different. I actually talked to Devinci about this so I'm following something similar to what he posted. So far I'm seeing good results. The biggest thing that I've noticed is that my power is increasing pretty rapidly. Now I'm guessing this will level off soon but I am seeing those early gains and that's positive. The second thing that I am noticing is that I am recovering faster from the workouts than I did when I would do longer easier days. When I look at TSS I am seeing similar TSS for the shorter workouts as I am with the longer ones. So maybe I'm getting the increased training benefit but I am getting a little more time to recover. I'm doing 4 day blocks but I've decided to not do any VO2 work now and just stick to threshold. So 4 days of 2x20 at 90-95% or 3x15 at 95-100% of FTP. Then on the fifth day I'm either taking it off completely or doing a short run and some strength training. So far its been positive. My Friel following friends think I'm going to be blown up by April but for now I think its working good.

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devinci
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by devinci

I have also seen decents gains from this method but I've been doing a bit of L5 work lately. Now the L5 work will start to be less frequent and I should start a more sweet spot focused approach. The ceiling is raised, now time to lift the floor!

KWalker
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by KWalker

You guys aren't talking about true reverse periodiziation, which means you don't quite grasp the normal kind either. I wouldn't bother with this approach until you've exhausted the limites of normal methods or your event calls for it. I know it seems nice to not have to do many hours when its wet out or nasty out, but that doesn't mean it makes sense to do things this way. Reverse periodization also DOES NOT MEAN START AT L6 and work your way down the intensity ladder. In normal aerobic sports, one would still primarily build their aerobic system using intensities around or below FTP, usually starting with shorter work intervals and moving longer. In track and swimming it was tried a bit in the 60's, 80's and 2000's (notice the cycle) for long distance swimmers who had stagnated on normal progressions and instead used a lot of speed work, shorter races, and shorter duration intervals to increase velocity over time. Often times they would use a target pace and try to extend that pace over a longer duration and/or modify the pace as time went on so that by the time they arrived at their specific preparation period their average velocity for a set distance is higher. This works for cycling events such as TT's, long mountainous stage races, triathlon, and ultraendurance events for experienced athletes, but I don't see why people think they need to train this way based off of some snippets from Wiggos coach. Remember that Wiggo also used different races that had shorter time trials, shorter climbs, etc. earlier in the season and then the target events naturally grew longer until the Tour. From what little I've seen he was still doing hard 30min climbs at threshold in January, not L6 work on his hometrainer. I really think you're creating the potential to ruin a season by not properly building a decent base before tackling race specific work if you follow what is espoused in this thread. Perhaps if you were training for the pursuit and started with efforts say in the 2-3min range and then slowly worked up towards your target pursuit time (again pacing plays a key here).
Don't take me too seriously. The only person that doesn't hate Froome.
Gramz
Failed Custom Bike

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