2022 New Frame Rumours

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

Moderator: robbosmans

citrusparty
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:44 pm

by citrusparty

New merida scultura has been revealed. They only announced the top model, but I'm eagerly awaiting the a lower model when it's released. Always excellent value for money.

https://cyclingtips.com/2021/09/meridas ... -for-2022/

by Weenie


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mrlobber
Posts: 1447
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 9:36 am
Location: Where the permanent autumn is

by mrlobber

66mm BB drop for that Merida? :shock:
Also, 10k EUR doesn't seem to be so much "value for money", a bit cheaper than a couple of other brand top offerings, but that's it.
Bikes I know something of:
Vial Evo Ultra | SS Evo 1 & 2 | R5D | S5 | S5D | P5 | O2 V.A.M D | AR FRD | Addict SL | Plasma 3 | SL6 | Orca | Orca OMX D | Boone D | 596

FlatlandClimber
Posts: 1733
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:37 pm

by FlatlandClimber

mrlobber wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:37 am
66mm BB drop for that Merida? :shock:
Also, 10k EUR doesn't seem to be so much "value for money", a bit cheaper than a couple of other brand top offerings, but that's it.
Other manufactures are just moving closer to 13/14/15 grand, so 10 is the new value price.
Open WI.DE (2019) - 8.7kg
Specialized Shiv TT Disc (2020) - 7.9kg
Specialized SW Æthos (2021) 6.5kg
Trek Émonda SLR9 (2021) 7.3kg
Specialized SW Crux (2022) 7.9kg

*all weights are race ready bikes, large frame size.
Sold: SW Venge, S5 Disc, Roubaix Team

mrlobber
Posts: 1447
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 9:36 am
Location: Where the permanent autumn is

by mrlobber

Yes, honestly, I didn't think we'll get there SO fast.
Bikes I know something of:
Vial Evo Ultra | SS Evo 1 & 2 | R5D | S5 | S5D | P5 | O2 V.A.M D | AR FRD | Addict SL | Plasma 3 | SL6 | Orca | Orca OMX D | Boone D | 596

maquisard
Posts: 2979
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 8:51 pm
Location: France

by maquisard

But a NEW Dacia Duster car can be bought for 14 490 €

https://www.dacia.fr/gamme-vehicules/du ... d-ph2.html

(Dacia is a low-cost car, but it is still a car. I drove one around Iceland and it was un-refined but not so bad)

Bike pricing is fundamentally broken. As others say, the top and mid-end is increasing and leaving no room behind it. No mechanical Ultegra any more, only 105 which is also crazy price. This is bad for the industry and bike stores. Car prices increase but there is a strong second owner market. There is not this for bikes. Will we perhaps now see people leasing high end bikes for several years then handing them back for newer model? The older models then being reconditioned and sold on to a second owner.

citrusparty
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:44 pm

by citrusparty

mrlobber wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:37 am
66mm BB drop for that Merida? :shock:
Also, 10k EUR doesn't seem to be so much "value for money", a bit cheaper than a couple of other brand top offerings, but that's it.
I'm in Aus, after accounting for FOREX differences I come out massively ahead.

€9,999 RRP is approx $16,105 AUD, vs the AU$11,499 aus RRP (equiv €7,139) quoted in the article.

When the borders open up, you should come for a holiday & buy the bike. You'll come out even compared to buying in europe lmao.

Maddie
Posts: 914
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:44 am

by Maddie

maquisard wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:27 am
But a NEW Dacia Duster car can be bought for 14 490 €

https://www.dacia.fr/gamme-vehicules/du ... d-ph2.html

(Dacia is a low-cost car, but it is still a car. I drove one around Iceland and it was un-refined but not so bad)
Imagine this, a was in a warehouse the other day where you could buy a NEW bike for around 150 Eur. I drove it quickly, it's unrefined, but shifts and brakes well.

So many new bikes middle to high end bikes are sold nowadays. How is this bad for bike shops, they sell plenty! And if you think there is no 2nd hand market, just wait 2 years.

FlatlandClimber
Posts: 1733
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:37 pm

by FlatlandClimber

maquisard wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:27 am
But a NEW Dacia Duster car can be bought for 14 490 €

https://www.dacia.fr/gamme-vehicules/du ... d-ph2.html

(Dacia is a low-cost car, but it is still a car. I drove one around Iceland and it was un-refined but not so bad)

Bike pricing is fundamentally broken. As others say, the top and mid-end is increasing and leaving no room behind it. No mechanical Ultegra any more, only 105 which is also crazy price. This is bad for the industry and bike stores. Car prices increase but there is a strong second owner market. There is not this for bikes. Will we perhaps now see people leasing high end bikes for several years then handing them back for newer model? The older models then being reconditioned and sold on to a second owner.
I am not trying to defend the pricing strategy in the bike industry, but it works, as demand is high and supply is limited.

The Dacia costs €15k, a similar sized Porsche Macan Turbo costs up to 8 times that amount. It doesn't fit more people or cargo, it is not 8 times faster (especially not on congested streets, where it spends 95% of its riding, and the rest is spent in some car park or garage), doesn't do anything 8 times better. But people are still well willing to spend that.

I mean, what is really the performance gain of a 2022 SL7 with DA 9270 over say a Tarmac SL5 with DA9000? In terms of performance, there is little in it. You can likely have most of the performance by buying fast tires, deep (used) wheels and maybe aero handlebars. The SL5 will likely set you back a fraction of the SL7, and you don't really lose anything tangible.
If it is about having the latest and greatest, bling looks, and 5 watts of aero saving, then you can have that, by spending 15 Grand.
There is always the option to not buy.

Again, I am not defending the pricing strategy, I am just saying it's not like they doubled the price in water and bread. This is Uber luxury goods we are talking about.
Open WI.DE (2019) - 8.7kg
Specialized Shiv TT Disc (2020) - 7.9kg
Specialized SW Æthos (2021) 6.5kg
Trek Émonda SLR9 (2021) 7.3kg
Specialized SW Crux (2022) 7.9kg

*all weights are race ready bikes, large frame size.
Sold: SW Venge, S5 Disc, Roubaix Team

maquisard
Posts: 2979
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 8:51 pm
Location: France

by maquisard

It is stupid to compare a 150 € supermarket bike to a budget car like a Dacia Duster.

The low end market is increasing to where mid-range market was previously. This means beginners/casual fitness riders have less choice, it also means that most riders will replace bikes less often. Price inflation is not good for bike stores, their margins are staying the same or actually getting worse.

maquisard
Posts: 2979
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 8:51 pm
Location: France

by maquisard

FlatlandClimber wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:08 am
I am not trying to defend the pricing strategy in the bike industry, but it works, as demand is high and supply is limited.

The Dacia costs €15k, a similar sized Porsche Macan Turbo costs up to 8 times that amount. It doesn't fit more people or cargo, it is not 8 times faster (especially not on congested streets, where it spends 95% of its riding, and the rest is spent in some car park or garage), doesn't do anything 8 times better. But people are still well willing to spend that.

I mean, what is really the performance gain of a 2022 SL7 with DA 9270 over say a Tarmac SL5 with DA9000? In terms of performance, there is little in it. You can likely have most of the performance by buying fast tires, deep (used) wheels and maybe aero handlebars. The SL5 will likely set you back a fraction of the SL7, and you don't really lose anything tangible.
If it is about having the latest and greatest, bling looks, and 5 watts of aero saving, then you can have that, by spending 15 Grand.
There is always the option to not buy.

Again, I am not defending the pricing strategy, I am just saying it's not like they doubled the price in water and bread. This is Uber luxury goods we are talking about.
You are correct, market forces have driven the prices higher. It is supply and demand like you say.

The point I was trying to make about Dacia was that there is a cheap car with reasonable performance. It is not easy to buy a very terrible cheap car nowadays. The industry is well regulated and stardards are high. It is possible to buy a terrible (and dangerous) cheap bike.

RDY
Posts: 909
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:31 pm

by RDY

The Dacia probably has production costs around the €8-9k mark. The €15k bike, absolute max €1500-€2000, and that's being really generous if it's a major brand rather than low volume exotica.
Last edited by RDY on Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

maquisard
Posts: 2979
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 8:51 pm
Location: France

by maquisard

RDY wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:29 am
The Dacia probably has production costs around the €8-9k mark. The €15k bike, absolute max €1500-€2000. if it's a major brand rather than low volume exotica.
Exactly! This is my point which you have described in much better way.

Even a €2.5k Alu/105 bike the parts cost is probably less than 500€. Price inflation is out of control.

TwiggyForest
Posts: 98
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:06 am

by TwiggyForest

citrusparty wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:41 am
mrlobber wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:37 am
66mm BB drop for that Merida? :shock:
Also, 10k EUR doesn't seem to be so much "value for money", a bit cheaper than a couple of other brand top offerings, but that's it.
I'm in Aus, after accounting for FOREX differences I come out massively ahead.

€9,999 RRP is approx $16,105 AUD, vs the AU$11,499 aus RRP (equiv €7,139) quoted in the article.

When the borders open up, you should come for a holiday & buy the bike. You'll come out even compared to buying in europe lmao.
Normally 99 bikes sells Merida for a bit less than the RRP too, probably closer to $10k.

pmprego
Posts: 1642
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

maquisard wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:33 am
RDY wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:29 am
The Dacia probably has production costs around the €8-9k mark. The €15k bike, absolute max €1500-€2000. if it's a major brand rather than low volume exotica.
Exactly! This is my point which you have described in much better way.

Even a €2.5k Alu/105 bike the parts cost is probably less than 500€. Price inflation is out of control.
if that markup was real you would have way more companies entering the bike industry market. The bike industry market, the high end particularly, it's a very, tiny small market with zero economies of scale. This is basically the opposite of the car industry.

But i really don't want to enter the price discussion. Just wanted to say that the markups you guys are implying is not true in any industry in the world.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



RDY
Posts: 909
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:31 pm

by RDY

pmprego wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:59 am
maquisard wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:33 am
RDY wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:29 am
The Dacia probably has production costs around the €8-9k mark. The €15k bike, absolute max €1500-€2000. if it's a major brand rather than low volume exotica.
Exactly! This is my point which you have described in much better way.

Even a €2.5k Alu/105 bike the parts cost is probably less than 500€. Price inflation is out of control.
if that markup was real you would have way more companies entering the bike industry market. The bike industry market, the high end particularly, it's a very, tiny small market with zero economies of scale. This is basically the opposite of the car industry.
Do you work in the bike industry? Because you sound like you do. This a total myth, and one which they want everyone to believe.

Costs to make most bike parts in high volume are really (REALLY) low, and there's not a big difference in cost between low, mid and high end parts, despite the gigantic differences in prices. That VeloBuild frameset for €500 delivered probably costs VeloBuild about €100 less than an S-Works SL7 does to Specialized.

The mid to high end bike market absolutely dwarfs the motorbike industry.

There are several reasons you don't see big new entrants. The price rise has been astronomic, and extremely fast. The expansion of the market has also been very large and very quick. I.E. It hasn't happened YET. But the biggest reason, it's all marketing and brand, with well entrenched companies that all have cushy relationships with the cycling media - or what passes for it. It's never been about features or performance, or very little, for 90% of people buying the top stuff.

That's why you're seeing car and motorbike companies going into e-bikes (even though profit margins are smaller - though still vast) rather than bikes. They're primarily seen as a mode of transport, where people will seek value, performance, and convenience, so they can compete with or out-compete bike brands. Whereas the bike industry is all marketing mumbo-jumbo and snake oil, brand worship and people trying to convince you that a $500 (max) frameset is worth $6-7k (or more), and that $4000 pair of wheels which cost $300 to make are totally worth it.
Last edited by RDY on Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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