Please don’t make this a rim vs disc bloodfest. Stage 17 won with rim brake

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

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mgrl
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by mgrl

tjvirden wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:32 am
I like this, but there should be one additional category beyond laggards......Luddites!

[They also had valid reasons for their approach]
The luddites have been done dirty by history (for obvious reasons, but still)

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Lewn777
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by Lewn777

Mcdeez wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:49 am
Lewn777 wrote:The four kinds of people that buy road disk bikes:
1. The complete noob. A guy/gal that believes all the marketing nonsense.
2. The innocent converter. A guy/gal that had positive experiences with CX/MTB hydraulic disk brakes and thinks they should be better than anything else available. A noob to road cycling but not to cycling in general.
3. The skeptical converter. Doesn't really see the point in disk brakes on a road bikes, but doesn't want older technology that might be hard to sell later on, or be out of fashion.
4. The denialist. Has ridden rim brakes and knows that they are perfectly OK, especially in the dry and especially on better carbon rims and alloy rims. Yet for some reason needs to defend all their purchases on the internet and goes out of their way to attack and denigrate rim technology that is perfectly OK for the application. That somehow unnecessary new tech that has been ported across from MTB with barely a thought and is plagued with issues such as rubbing and warping should be a universal technology because that's what they have. Somehow bikes sales in a certain market or random other reasons are an indication of superiority.
Thats some really noob assuming

Its like a boomer stuck in the 60s with his big V8 7Liters muscle cars that have 250hp "nothing better than a V8" and todays technology you have 300hp+ 4 cylinders turbo engines with much better power and fuel economy lol

Some people just cant accept the new technology thats is better.

Rim brakes just ok enough. Modulation is kinda shitty.Wet performance is shitty.When you do a climbing ride of 3000+ with lots of up and downs, you wear your beautiful expensive wheels and yes i saw a wheel cracked because of the use.

Since disc brakes its so much better, modulation is awesome,braking is sooo much better, specially on long steep down hills when you have your brakes on for almost a km because theres cars in front of you. Wet conditions/gravel cant even compaire.

Even removing wheel and pu it back is more prectical, every time i removen my wheel from rim brake,when i pit it back the caliper wasn't aligned properly so when you brake you can see the wheels moving the towards left or right.So i had to align it every time,its annoying. With Discs and thru axels, its soo easy,put it back and forget about it.
It's NOT new technology! I've been using disk brakes for years on MTBs. It is unnecessary technology for road bikes because the tire contact patch is too small. Disk brakes make road bikes SLOWER so they are not an improvement they are pure marketing If you think disk brakes are better then you have been lied to or are deluding yourself. People that don't want disk brakes on their road bikes are not old or laggards, they are simply capable of understanding bikes objectively. I don't want v-brakes on my mountain bike, I want hydraulic disk. Yet I want direct mount on my road bike. Application application application.

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

C36 wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:09 pm

The gain is there on a complete system. 10 W+ are not in the marginal territory how much do you need to train to increase your FTP by 10W? When the race heat up and they become 15?
Sorry, but can you clarify where you're getting the 10W data from? I am aware of tests in certain wind conditions where the disc brake variant will actually be slower, such as in crosswinds, or how in even the most optimal conditions the disc version "only" makes you 0.5 to 1.5 watts faster. Are we talking about the same thing? Mind you I haven't looked up this stuff in a couple of years so there may have been newer research.
C36 wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:09 pm
Typical error mixing physical shape in deferent moments and what different equipment would give you at the same date.
No error there - I wasn't trying to say that I was in better shape on old tech therefore old tech is faster (nor would I support such a claim!). I was saying, for most of us, whose racing days are long gone, no amount of gear will make much of a difference.
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spartacus
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by spartacus

Arguing with people that think all disc brakes are 10w less aero than all rim brakes is like arguing with climate denialists or religious people. They believe what they believe and are not open to changing their viewpoints no matter how many facts are presented.

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

Perp wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:24 pm
I must be doing it wrong. I have 2 rim brake and 2 disc brake bikes. All top end (Wilier zero, s-works tarmac, v3rs disc, Time ADH disc) with top groupsets (shimano, sram, campy)

Rim brakes bikes are under 7kg with the wilier at 6.3kg. Disc brake are 7.2 and 7.5kg. Flat, climbs, mix, I'm fastest on.... the heaviest bike - v3rs. 4w/kg FTP rider at 65kg. Must be something wrong with my lighter rim brake bikes with similar depth wheels (45mm).

I like both kinds of bikes but prefer the ride of disc due to ease of braking (modulation and effort) and obvioulsy in the rain. Wilier *feels* the fastest to ride, until I look at the numbers after.
Which bike does feel best to ride? If you picked one of these bikes and could only have that single bike, which would you pick and why?
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=156137
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D

openwheelracing
Posts: 307
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:41 am

by openwheelracing

Please don't equate current road disc brakes to PDK or modern turbo engines. Silly. Just silly.

Also, now someone claims their rim brake wobbles after removing and installing wheel. While disc with thru axle never an issue. LOL.

Someone please tell us you are fastest on grandma's grocery bike and that weighs 18kg. It has disc brake so it's like a turbo engine.

Facts are, current gen disc brakes are heavy bikes, and they costs more which effectively downgrade your groupset and wheels at any given price point.
Last edited by openwheelracing on Wed Aug 11, 2021 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

openwheelracing wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 2:11 pm
Please don't equate current road disc brakes to PDK or modern turbo engines. Silly. Just silly.

Also, now someone claims their rim brake wobbles after removing and installing wheel. While disc with thru axle never an issue. LOL.
Sounds as a damaged drop out!?
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=156137
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D

tjvirden
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by tjvirden

Lewn777 wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:16 pm
Oh wow, I'm in the innovator group then, Been riding hydraulic disk on MTB's since the mid naughties.
Graphs we never convince me of a thing. The fact is a road bicycle with 25mm tires has a contact patch about the size of fingernail. Therefore it makes zero difference if you use rim or disk brakes. Quote and anecdotal thing or sales figures you like.
I think the "Innovators" bit is for people actually creating new stuff, not just using it. [perhaps that is you]

I've got to pull you up on the contact patch stuff though - at typical loads and pressures a 25mm road bike tire will have a "contact patch" of about 10mmx60mm. Perhaps you don't cut your fingernails often? :)

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Alexbn921
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by Alexbn921

Lina wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:23 am

So you know rich boomers that hardly even ride their bikes that have specific taste in bikes. How is any of this relevant? One or even two rich boomers don't dictate the global bike market, they'll get outspent massively even in a small city by everyone else.
Are you dense?
Apparently, it's imposable that anyone on disks rides their bike fast or they must be a complete noob. Some guys just noodle, but most are hard core racer types and superfast club riders. Some of the fastest riders in the world live around here.
Ride fast Take chances

openwheelracing
Posts: 307
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by openwheelracing

Nah most people here prefer rim over disc. So clearly your claim is specific to you. Yes, some of the fastest riders in the World live here too.

blutto
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:09 pm

by blutto

Lewn777 wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:29 pm
Mcdeez wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:49 am
Lewn777 wrote:The four kinds of people that buy road disk bikes:
1. The complete noob. A guy/gal that believes all the marketing nonsense.
2. The innocent converter. A guy/gal that had positive experiences with CX/MTB hydraulic disk brakes and thinks they should be better than anything else available. A noob to road cycling but not to cycling in general.
3. The skeptical converter. Doesn't really see the point in disk brakes on a road bikes, but doesn't want older technology that might be hard to sell later on, or be out of fashion.
4. The denialist. Has ridden rim brakes and knows that they are perfectly OK, especially in the dry and especially on better carbon rims and alloy rims. Yet for some reason needs to defend all their purchases on the internet and goes out of their way to attack and denigrate rim technology that is perfectly OK for the application. That somehow unnecessary new tech that has been ported across from MTB with barely a thought and is plagued with issues such as rubbing and warping should be a universal technology because that's what they have. Somehow bikes sales in a certain market or random other reasons are an indication of superiority.
Thats some really noob assuming

Its like a boomer stuck in the 60s with his big V8 7Liters muscle cars that have 250hp "nothing better than a V8" and todays technology you have 300hp+ 4 cylinders turbo engines with much better power and fuel economy lol

Some people just cant accept the new technology thats is better.

Rim brakes just ok enough. Modulation is kinda shitty.Wet performance is shitty.When you do a climbing ride of 3000+ with lots of up and downs, you wear your beautiful expensive wheels and yes i saw a wheel cracked because of the use.

Since disc brakes its so much better, modulation is awesome,braking is sooo much better, specially on long steep down hills when you have your brakes on for almost a km because theres cars in front of you. Wet conditions/gravel cant even compaire.

Even removing wheel and pu it back is more prectical, every time i removen my wheel from rim brake,when i pit it back the caliper wasn't aligned properly so when you brake you can see the wheels moving the towards left or right.So i had to align it every time,its annoying. With Discs and thru axels, its soo easy,put it back and forget about it.
It's NOT new technology! I've been using disk brakes for years on MTBs. It is unnecessary technology for road bikes because the tire contact patch is too small. Disk brakes make road bikes SLOWER so they are not an improvement they are pure marketing If you think disk brakes are better then you have been lied to or are deluding yourself. People that don't want disk brakes on their road bikes are not old or laggards, they are simply capable of understanding bikes objectively. I don't want v-brakes on my mountain bike, I want hydraulic disk. Yet I want direct mount on my road bike. Application application application.
To expand a bit on the above response....

I've been riding/training/racing for well over 4 decades now and have in that time logged an awful lot of miles....and with a fair amount of riding, and even racing, in the wet....During that time I have had occasion to apply my brakes on a whole lot of times....and frankly I cannot remember an instance where in applying my brakes I ran out of braking power....I did however on numerous occasions run out of tire ( see that tire patch thingee dilemma mentioned above )...yup lots of experience with that...

And those miles and miles have also given me some experience in regards destroying rims....now I have gone though scores and scores of rims, and yet never have I worn out a rim....have bent numerous rims in race related crashes, stupid riding decisions, have pulled spokes thru rims but have never ever worn out a rim on the brake surface...

So my question is...how much riding does one have to do in the rain ( which apparently is the key to destroying rims ) to total a rim....and how much braking does one have to perform in those rides to destroy a rim....my experience is that braking is a very short series of intervals during riding ( though I understand that some people often revert to dragging the brakes for long periods of time....which is really bad form but that is how some people use their brakes...)....and from reports on this site apparently carbon rims have also been destroyed thru braking in dry conditions as well...and why use carbon wheels in crap conditions....in the old days we used what we called training wheels, lesser quality and kinda sorta understood to be disposable, in crap conditions...

Now the experience that I drew upon to make the comments above was from riding mostly on alloy rims ( though I have used carbon wheels in the last decade or so ...and btw with no problems either with braking or wear in either wet or dry ). Which got me thinking....maybe these rim problems are simply showing that carbon wheels, while they are seriously bling and are de rigueur requirement for true cycle stylin', are not the most ideal material for rim construction for all applications ( as in application, application, application ) ....and that discs are simply an overly expensive band-aid to paper over that problem....

Cheers

iggg
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:10 pm

by iggg

openwheelracing wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 2:23 pm
Nah most people here prefer rim over disc. So clearly your claim is specific to you. Yes, some of the fastest riders in the World live here too.
It doesn't even matter what you mean by "here", you are almost certanly wrong - most (and by most I mean 90+%) cyclists prefer disks brakes, including "here"

Mcdeez
Posts: 319
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:40 pm

by Mcdeez

Rim brakes saves 10watts? LOL

In a 40 min crit you run disc or rim ,there would be no difference, youre almost always at the wheel of somebody, and you really think a rim brake will make you accelerate faster? lol

Discs brake better because of the better modulation, it has nothing to do with the contact patch.

And yes you wear out your rim brake wheel with excessive brake in the long term like a aluminum wheel, same thing.

If you buy an used carbon rim wheelset,you're not gonna inspect the brake track before buying?? Of course yes!!(if youre not inspecting it,not smart) because it wears out in the long run.



iheartbianchi
Posts: 680
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by iheartbianchi

Did someone actually say that rim saves 10w? Maybe in an awful crosswind, maybe.
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by Weenie


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iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

openwheelracing wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 2:11 pm
Please don't equate current road disc brakes to PDK or modern turbo engines. Silly. Just silly.
Just pointing out that it is a perfectly rationale choice for people to prefer older technology for whatever reason.
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