Please don’t make this a rim vs disc bloodfest. Stage 17 won with rim brake

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

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Lewn777
Posts: 1261
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:35 am

by Lewn777

The four kinds of people that buy road disk bikes:
1. The complete noob. A guy/gal that believes all the marketing nonsense.
2. The innocent converter. A guy/gal that had positive experiences with CX/MTB hydraulic disk brakes and thinks they should be better than anything else available. A noob to road cycling but not to cycling in general.
3. The skeptical converter. Doesn't really see the point in disk brakes on a road bikes, but doesn't want older technology that might be hard to sell later on, or be out of fashion.
4. The denialist. Has ridden rim brakes and knows that they are perfectly OK, especially in the dry and especially on better carbon rims and alloy rims. Yet for some reason needs to defend all their purchases on the internet and goes out of their way to attack and denigrate rim technology that is perfectly OK for the application. That somehow unnecessary new tech that has been ported across from MTB with barely a thought and is plagued with issues such as rubbing and warping should be a universal technology because that's what they have. Somehow bikes sales in a certain market or random other reasons are an indication of superiority.

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tommyboyo
Posts: 333
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:49 am

by tommyboyo

Been riding a lot in the rain in the UK past couple of weeks.

Discs are a godsend.

On rims, I used to plan my routes when it was raining to avoid any big braking events, as they were scary at times, waiting desperatley for the bite and strangling the levers to get the thing to slow down (and yes, I had quality setup, with alloy brake track not carbon)!!

Now I don't even think about it, or worry about braking from high speeds anymore and it's great. I feel quite bad-ass hurtling along in the pouring rain now and flying down the descents - well flying for me anyway. :)

Plus it's lovely not to have that horrible grinding sound as the grit destroys your lovely rims everytime you pull the brake lever.

One day not long from now, people will ask 'What, so you actully used to use the surface of your rims as a braking surface?' and then laugh.

misteryellow
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:04 pm

by misteryellow

stevesbike wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:31 pm
misteryellow wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:01 pm
I find it very funny that disc brakes have become a staking ground for discussion about the bike industry. Integrated bars, proprietary seatposts, electronic shifting (with an app!), impractical 'aerodynamic' shapes...none led to consumers complaining about the planned obsolescense bike industry as much as disc brakes. Yet, disc brakes are literally the only technological change in the last decades that benefits ordinary riders and not racers or pro's. Hence why it was so contentious in the pro peleton in my opinion.
how do disc brakes benefit ordinary riders? Certainly not in terms of their servicability and even if there are marginal gains of braking performance why does an ordinary 'ordinary' rider need that? The only benefit of disc brakes would be stopping distance in the rain - something that potentially benefits pro riders as in Pogacar's stage 8 performance (even though Carapaz didn't lose time on the descents on rim brakes). As for the purported safety benefits of disc brakes due to shorter stopping distance, if you do the math, it turns out that the probability that this would ever actually avoid an accident is miniscule.

The reason people complain about disc brakes is because they render frames, component groups, and wheelsets obsolete. An integrated handlebar on a Trek has no effect on my bike, but when major manufacturers no longer make rim brake wheelsets (Zipp etc), it affects me as a consumer.
Because they stop much better irrespective of weather conditions. You might be surprised to hear this but pro riders don't have to stop for red lights or other traffic. The difference in the rain is very noticeable though, especially with carbon hoops. There are plenty of manufacturers that make rim brake wheelsets by the way, just not high-end carbon wheels. An integrated handlebar on a Trek means you have to buy a 1000 dollar handlebar when your fit changes. And what if you break it in ten years time? Will the handlebar be even available? You're generally wholly dependent on Trek for the functioning of your bike. I do agree that it's a huge annoyance that disc brakes have made frames, component groups and wheelsets obsolete. Maybe you have a point. In my opinion everything should be made modular so you can change later on. But it is no secret that bike companies just want the moneyzzz.

misteryellow
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:04 pm

by misteryellow

Lewn777 wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:37 pm
The four kinds of people that buy road disk bikes:
1. The complete noob. A guy/gal that believes all the marketing nonsense.
2. The innocent converter. A guy/gal that had positive experiences with CX/MTB hydraulic disk brakes and thinks they should be better than anything else available. A noob to road cycling but not to cycling in general.
3. The skeptical converter. Doesn't really see the point in disk brakes on a road bikes, but doesn't want older technology that might be hard to sell later on, or be out of fashion.
4. The denialist. Has ridden rim brakes and knows that they are perfectly OK, especially in the dry and especially on better carbon rims and alloy rims. Yet for some reason needs to defend all their purchases on the internet and goes out of their way to attack and denigrate rim technology that is perfectly OK for the application. That somehow unnecessary new tech that has been ported across from MTB with barely a thought and is plagued with issues such as rubbing and warping should be a universal technology because that's what they have. Somehow bikes sales in a certain market or random other reasons are an indication of superiority.
The biggest problems with disc is execution and transferability. Its concept IS superior, however its execution and added cost (including obsolescence) means its widespread use is not yet warranted.

misteryellow
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:04 pm

by misteryellow

Ypuh wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:31 pm
I believe the topic title unsurprisingly kind of failed.
Well it is not unsurprising, but in my opinion it is also very warranted. The introduction of disc brakes is probably the most involving and costly decision the bike industry has taken in the last decades. As such, it represents a wider economic phenomenon of 'planned obsolescence', which thus far was pretty alien to the bike industry.

Flasher
Posts: 163
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:10 pm

by Flasher

misteryellow wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:16 pm
Well it is not unsurprising, but in my opinion it is also very warranted. The introduction of disc brakes is probably the most involving and costly decision the bike industry has taken in the last decades. As such, it represents a wider economic phenomenon of 'planned obsolescence', which thus far was pretty alien to the bike industry.
and what a money spinner it is for the industry :thumbup:

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Alexbn921
Posts: 751
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 pm

by Alexbn921

Lewn777 wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:37 pm
The four kinds of people that buy road disk bikes:
1. The complete noob. A guy/gal that believes all the marketing nonsense.
2. The innocent converter. A guy/gal that had positive experiences with CX/MTB hydraulic disk brakes and thinks they should be better than anything else available. A noob to road cycling but not to cycling in general.
3. The skeptical converter. Doesn't really see the point in disk brakes on a road bikes, but doesn't want older technology that might be hard to sell later on, or be out of fashion.
4. The denialist. Has ridden rim brakes and knows that they are perfectly OK, especially in the dry and especially on better carbon rims and alloy rims. Yet for some reason needs to defend all their purchases on the internet and goes out of their way to attack and denigrate rim technology that is perfectly OK for the application. That somehow unnecessary new tech that has been ported across from MTB with barely a thought and is plagued with issues such as rubbing and warping should be a universal technology because that's what they have. Somehow bikes sales in a certain market or random other reasons are an indication of superiority.
How many miles do you need to do NOT to be a noob?
5. The experienced rider that completely understands the pro's and con's and picks disks as they work better. This is 70-80% of riders.
6 The old fogy that hates change and has no mechanical aptitude. Sticks to rim brakes no matter what.
Ride fast Take chances

MikeD
Posts: 821
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:55 pm

by MikeD

stevesbike wrote:
misteryellow wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:01 pm
I find it very funny that disc brakes have become a staking ground for discussion about the bike industry. Integrated bars, proprietary seatposts, electronic shifting (with an app!), impractical 'aerodynamic' shapes...none led to consumers complaining about the planned obsolescense bike industry as much as disc brakes. Yet, disc brakes are literally the only technological change in the last decades that benefits ordinary riders and not racers or pro's. Hence why it was so contentious in the pro peleton in my opinion.
how do disc brakes benefit ordinary riders? Certainly not in terms of their servicability and even if there are marginal gains of braking performance why does an ordinary 'ordinary' rider need that? The only benefit of disc brakes would be stopping distance in the rain - something that potentially benefits pro riders as in Pogacar's stage 8 performance (even though Carapaz didn't lose time on the descents on rim brakes). As for the purported safety benefits of disc brakes due to shorter stopping distance, if you do the math, it turns out that the probability that this would ever actually avoid an accident is miniscule.

The reason people complain about disc brakes is because they render frames, component groups, and wheelsets obsolete. An integrated handlebar on a Trek has no effect on my bike, but when major manufacturers no longer make rim brake wheelsets (Zipp etc), it affects me as a consumer.
Well said.

rudye9mr
Posts: 336
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 12:01 pm

by rudye9mr

Prefer a sacrifical braking surface that could be replaced...hence disc

tjvirden
Posts: 540
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:21 pm

by tjvirden

Flasher wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:36 pm
misteryellow wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:16 pm
Well it is not unsurprising, but in my opinion it is also very warranted. The introduction of disc brakes is probably the most involving and costly decision the bike industry has taken in the last decades. As such, it represents a wider economic phenomenon of 'planned obsolescence', which thus far was pretty alien to the bike industry.
and what a money spinner it is for the industry :thumbup:
Thank goodness it is :wink:

mgrl
Posts: 333
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:49 am

by mgrl

If disc brakes have done one thing it's got manufacturers to move away from the god awful integrated rim brakes on aero and TT bikes. My P5D actually stops when you want it to.

Lina
Posts: 492
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm

by Lina

iheartbianchi wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:48 am
You're a better man than me. I got sick of spending 1 hour cleaning and drying my bike and my shoes after every ride in wet conditions. Not to mention it's just miserable, uncomfortable and greater risk of accidents or a puncture.
That just tells you live somewhere with a nice climate. If you live in a region with a lot of rain you just have deal with it. And hosing down your bike and wiping it dry takes like 5 minutes tops. And you can hose down yourself to get rid of the dirt while doing it.

tjvirden
Posts: 540
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:21 pm

by tjvirden

rudye9mr wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:05 pm
Prefer a sacrifical braking surface that could be replaced...hence disc
Strangely, when you put it like this, I smell a conspiracy......

It's almost as if the cycling industry stuck with rim brakes on road bikes for so long because that enabled a cast-iron guaranty of obsolescence; every rim becomes obsolete - it wears out! And the pros were clearly their shills - holding out to the last against the change to rims that didn't wear thin! After all, they don't pay for their rims :D

Lina
Posts: 492
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm

by Lina

mgrl wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:10 pm
If disc brakes have done one thing it's got manufacturers to move away from the god awful integrated rim brakes on aero and TT bikes. My P5D actually stops when you want it to.
And the funny thing is before disc brakes people used to complain how bad the brakes on every single aero and TT bike are. Like that was the top complaint over them, not even that they're uncomfortable ass hatchets, but how bad their brakes are. Now everyone has forgotten that and disc brakes are bad because they're not as aero the rim brakes everyone hated. While a disc brake bike that just stops whenever you want in whatever conditions tests the fastest overall bike.

Singular
Posts: 430
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:59 am

by Singular

I can't believe that there still is an idea of a Big Disc cabal that tries to scam cyclists.

As mentioned, there was a transitional period where the manufacturers offered both rim and disc brake versions of their high-end bikes which once and for all decided on the future direction.

They're not offered anymore in the mass market, because when they were offered alongside the disc versions the market reception was crap. The world has moved on. The same thing applies to tubulars. It is good too, it is in some cases better than clinchers/tubeless, but the market has decided that it is not a relevant product for the mass market anymore. It is (just as rim brake bikes) still out there for those who want it, but it is surely not going to be taking up shelf space at manufacturers, distributors and retailers because some (hey, I ride rim brakes and tubulars too!) think that it "should" be available, but not committing purchasing them at retail pricing. A few of the Italians, Factor, surely a few more offer rim brake bikes. They'll be happy to take your hard-earned money for something you believe in. Do you dare shelling out a ton of cash for something that is most likely dead in the second-hand market? If you don't, why would someone else? And if no-one does, why should the products be offered...?

When considering planned obsolescence, I'm far more concerned about proprietary seatposts/clamps/stems, electronic shifting and a few other things than a leap over the whole business to a frankly more reasonable way to brake a vehicle. Disc brake brings a lot to bikes (that has nothing to do with the performance of the brakes themselves) - it frees up the design of bikes for getting rid of the brake bridge/mounts, allowing larger tyre clearance, taking away the need for braking surfaces and heat resistance in wheels and offers the potential to route brake lines completely internally (with, unlike cable-actuated rim brakes, no decline in performance). If the latter is a good idea is another question, but the demand in the market most certainly seems to be there.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



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