Please don’t make this a rim vs disc bloodfest. Stage 17 won with rim brake

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

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iheartbianchi
Posts: 680
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:17 am

by iheartbianchi

You're a better man than me. I got sick of spending 1 hour cleaning and drying my bike and my shoes after every ride in wet conditions. Not to mention it's just miserable, uncomfortable and greater risk of accidents or a puncture.
Bianchi Oltre XR4
Celeste Matte
Campy SR 11spd mechanical
Bora Ultra 50 tubs
Viseon 5D / stock bits and parts

Bianchi Specialissima Pantani Edition
Campy R 12spd mechanical
Fulcrum Racing Speed 35 tubs
FSA / Deda bits and parts

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

stevesbike wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:53 am
Other than crashing, has anyone in the last decade 'worn out' their bike? Does anyone remember when Titanium frames were marketed as the last bike you'd ever need to buy? This entire thread has neglected the fact that today's bikes should outlast us all. The recourse of the industry is planned obselescence via new standards and technologies. Some of these, like electronic shifting, are decent improvements but disc brakes are questionable and only exist becuase manufacturers lobbied the UCI not to reduce the minimum weight. They offer nothing for nearly the entire consumer base.
Probably not, but bikes have become objectively better over the past 10 years. Would we all be happy on 7speed and steel/aluminum bikes and aluminum wheels if the whole carbon and electric shifting revolution never happened? Yes we would. But would we be better off for it? No.

There is a fine line between innovation that results in enhanced consumer welfare in the form of better products vs. innovation just for the sake of change. The fashion industry is the worst about this, and they have 4 seasons each year in which they can make whatever you bought obsolete and out of style. The bike industry is getting a bit ridiculous in the current pricing, but I think at the entry/intermediate level of road bikes (which most consumers should be looking), there is much more value for your money now than 10 or 20 years ago. Modern day 105 and Ultegra are just so good. It's just the ones who clamor for race technology that get ripped off.
Bianchi Oltre XR4
Celeste Matte
Campy SR 11spd mechanical
Bora Ultra 50 tubs
Viseon 5D / stock bits and parts

Bianchi Specialissima Pantani Edition
Campy R 12spd mechanical
Fulcrum Racing Speed 35 tubs
FSA / Deda bits and parts

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
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www.starbike.com



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Miller
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by Miller

Tifosiphil wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:37 am
Riding in the UK has it's limitations, if I didn't ride in the rain I would barely be able to ride at all.
Same here. I don't much like actual rain but do many rides on wet roads. The two innovations that have helped me with riding in the wet are (prepare to be triggered) tubeless tyres and disc brakes. The first has more or less eliminated flats out on the road and the second has made braking much more secure. Speaking of speed, no mountains in the Thames valley but plenty of short steep climbs. It's possible to exceed 80kph on quite a few local descents.

misteryellow
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by misteryellow

I find it very funny that disc brakes have become a staking ground for discussion about the bike industry. Integrated bars, proprietary seatposts, electronic shifting (with an app!), impractical 'aerodynamic' shapes...none led to consumers complaining about the planned obsolescense bike industry as much as disc brakes. Yet, disc brakes are literally the only technological change in the last decades that benefits ordinary riders and not racers or pro's. Hence why it was so contentious in the pro peleton in my opinion.

openwheelracing
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by openwheelracing

These disc are hovering between 7.3-7.8kg. no where near 6.8 and that's with all bolts replaced to titanium. Pro teams are doing everything they can which includes unsafe parts and paper thin frames. This year along we have MVDP broken handlebar, seatpostgate and snapped seatstay.

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

openwheelracing wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:49 pm
These disc are hovering between 7.3-7.8kg. no where near 6.8 and that's with all bolts replaced to titanium. Pro teams are doing everything they can which includes unsafe parts and paper thin frames. This year along we have MVDP broken handlebar, seatpostgate and snapped seatstay.
Pro teams have one benefit though, they don't need to carry a pump, spare tube, tools and yada yada.
I also agree, most disc bikes are also integrated these days, so weight is probably most likely 7.5Kgs +.
If so, it's 1.5Kgs more than my bike.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=156137
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D

tjvirden
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by tjvirden

misteryellow wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:01 pm
I find it very funny that disc brakes have become a staking ground for discussion about the bike industry. Integrated bars, proprietary seatposts, electronic shifting (with an app!), impractical 'aerodynamic' shapes...none led to consumers complaining about the planned obsolescense bike industry as much as disc brakes. Yet, disc brakes are literally the only technological change in the last decades that benefits ordinary riders and not racers or pro's. Hence why it was so contentious in the pro peleton in my opinion.
Well said. Wouldn't it be wonderful if here, it was only as contentious as for (some of) the pros!

Ypuh
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by Ypuh

I believe the topic title unsurprisingly kind of failed.
Cervelo S3 - 7.29kg

stevesbike
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by stevesbike

misteryellow wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:01 pm
I find it very funny that disc brakes have become a staking ground for discussion about the bike industry. Integrated bars, proprietary seatposts, electronic shifting (with an app!), impractical 'aerodynamic' shapes...none led to consumers complaining about the planned obsolescense bike industry as much as disc brakes. Yet, disc brakes are literally the only technological change in the last decades that benefits ordinary riders and not racers or pro's. Hence why it was so contentious in the pro peleton in my opinion.
how do disc brakes benefit ordinary riders? Certainly not in terms of their servicability and even if there are marginal gains of braking performance why does an ordinary 'ordinary' rider need that? The only benefit of disc brakes would be stopping distance in the rain - something that potentially benefits pro riders as in Pogacar's stage 8 performance (even though Carapaz didn't lose time on the descents on rim brakes). As for the purported safety benefits of disc brakes due to shorter stopping distance, if you do the math, it turns out that the probability that this would ever actually avoid an accident is miniscule.

The reason people complain about disc brakes is because they render frames, component groups, and wheelsets obsolete. An integrated handlebar on a Trek has no effect on my bike, but when major manufacturers no longer make rim brake wheelsets (Zipp etc), it affects me as a consumer.

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cveks
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by cveks

openwheelracing wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:01 am
MikeD wrote:
Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:00 pm
Thanks to the UCI 6.8 kg weight limit...
I can't remember which podcast I heard this, but some teams are complaining about the 6.8kg limit cause it handicaps smaller climbers. Think Nairo, Simon brothers....etc. if they drop it down to 6.5 or 6.2 current gen disc brakes wouldn't be able to compete in weight.

Exactly..

Thats we are all here...

We are weight wennies..


We try to lower weight of our bikes ti make them more agile, faster...

So putting discs on bikes is complete weight wennie blasphemy

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cveks
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by cveks

Tifosiphil wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:37 am
tjvirden wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:40 am
iheartbianchi wrote:
Mon Aug 09, 2021 7:31 am
tjvirden wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 10:03 am

From a design and manufacturing perspective, I don't see how a rim, for use with a rim brake, can offer those three things together: low weight, low drag and excellent braking wet or dry. What about the aero drag of the disc, I hear? Well, a rim caliper* with exposed cabling will roughly balance that........

*Edit: a standard, front-mounted caliper of course
The thing is though, the vast majority of recreational cyclists refuse to ride when it's wet outside. Just think about the cyclists in your region - how many are willing to go out for a ride when it's raining or rain is forecast?

For customers, the purchasing considerations are some combination of cool factor, low weight, aero, cost and reliability. Strangely enough, people will pay a premium for the cutting-edge benefits of lightweight and aero, but seem less interested in braking capability since nobody really wants to zip down a wet downhill at 80km/h where braking performance really matters b/c it's dangerous and nobody is being paid to put their lives at risk. In fact I'd dare say most recreational cyclists have never even gone 70km'h on their bikes, and maybe not even 60km/h, and you can't fault them for putting their safety first.
I'm certain the % who ride in the wet varies plenty!

Being based in Britain at the moment, it seems that there's no shortage of people riding in - literally - any conditions. It's true that many don't ride in "poor" conditions, but a lot do. It's similar in some other parts of Europe too. A constant low-level theme in the UK is the lack of mounts for full-coverage mudguards - but if a bike is 'designed' by someone who rides in California........well, perhaps it isn't surprising that they're not a significant consideration!

No doubt plenty of - perhaps most - recreational cyclists don't reach 'high' speeds, but quite a lot do; there are a lot of lucky people living in places with mountains and paved roads. I have personally seen many converts to disc because of bad (dangerous) experiences braking on carbon rims in the wet - that's just in the UK, which really isn't a mountainous place. However, a short 15 or 20% downhill in the wet (with no opportunity to warm a rim-brake rim up) switches most people over quickly - you're quite right that they shouldn't be faulted for putting their safety first.
Riding in the UK has it's limitations, if I didn't ride in the rain I would barely be able to ride at all. 10 days into August so far and we have had maybe 3 days where it hasn't been raining at some point. Putting work and life into the mix and 80% of the time I've ridden this month it has either been raining or still wet on the floor
In my country, Serbia, we have lot of days with sunshine. You almost never need to ride on rainy days if you dont want to. Here and there you can be catched by rain, happens to me from time to time usually in summer, but I never go on ride, where it rains whole the time. Because South Europe have much nicer weather, than North we never need anything special for breaking in wet.

Pro peloton either. I always remember Pantani descenting on Col du Galibier on complete trash weather with rim brakes, in full speed without any problems.


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cveks
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by cveks

openwheelracing wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:49 pm
These disc are hovering between 7.3-7.8kg. no where near 6.8 and that's with all bolts replaced to titanium. Pro teams are doing everything they can which includes unsafe parts and paper thin frames. This year along we have MVDP broken handlebar, seatpostgate and snapped seatstay.
Yes. I like to ride bellow 7kgs bike. I live in mountain region and I do lot of mountain climbs. Like 30 km uphill 6% average gradient, 1200m altitude gain. There weight of bike and rider is everything.

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

I have read and heard so many times, that a light bike doesn't matter if you carry extra weight. I was 65Kgs when i started cycling and went up all the way to 86Kgs and now below 70Kgs. I've had exactly same bike from 86Kgs to below 70Kgs and one thing i can say. The light bike still behaves and feel different to a more heavy bike inspite of what my weight has been. I have two more bikes which both carry more weight and there is most certainly one thing you would notice very fast, how it rides (feel and handling). So this BS about light bikes doesn't matter yada yada is so far up someones ass, i hardly believe those saying it have ever owned a light bike.
Certainly you can't build the disc brake dito of a rim brake design at same weight. Because the disc brake frame and fork needs to be beefed up.
I don't say we talk of a huge amount of weight, but for those who do just about everything to drop weight off their bike(s), for sure a rim and disc brake dito (same bike but one made for rim and the other disc brakes) will both carry different weight and feel slightly different. Does it matter much, well, that is atleast one thing each of us must conclude by themselves.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=156137
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D

Karvalo
Posts: 2763
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

openwheelracing wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:49 pm
These disc are hovering between 7.3-7.8kg. no where near 6.8 and that's with all bolts replaced to titanium. Pro teams are doing everything they can which includes unsafe parts and paper thin frames. This year along we have MVDP broken handlebar, seatpostgate and snapped seatstay.
??? The broken handlebar and seatpostgate were parts engineered for aero and comfort, nothing to do with chasing weight. Any number of conventional parts would have been lighter and safer. And the bike with the snapped seatstay was so strong it rode just fine without it.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
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Perp
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by Perp

I must be doing it wrong. I have 2 rim brake and 2 disc brake bikes. All top end (Wilier zero, s-works tarmac, v3rs disc, Time ADH disc) with top groupsets (shimano, sram, campy)

Rim brakes bikes are under 7kg with the wilier at 6.3kg. Disc brake are 7.2 and 7.5kg. Flat, climbs, mix, I'm fastest on.... the heaviest bike - v3rs. 4w/kg FTP rider at 65kg. Must be something wrong with my lighter rim brake bikes with similar depth wheels (45mm).

I like both kinds of bikes but prefer the ride of disc due to ease of braking (modulation and effort) and obvioulsy in the rain. Wilier *feels* the fastest to ride, until I look at the numbers after.

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