Please don’t make this a rim vs disc bloodfest. Stage 17 won with rim brake

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

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stevesbike
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by stevesbike

stevesbike wrote:
Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:21 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 3:06 am
openwheelracing wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:04 am

Saying something is reality does not make it true.

We don't know exactly consumers "flocked" to disc.
That's marketing talk. We only know everything sells out extremely fast. I just bought a new bike for wife, and discs are easier to buy, but rim brakes are impossible to find.

Ask literally any bike shop owner. Ask Rob Gitelis, owner of Factor, a company that still makes rim-brake O2 VAMs. Ask wheel brands and brake pad suppliers.

Why should I believe YOU over the LBS owner I’ve known for over a decade? He still rides a rim-brake bike, btw.
The answer is pretty simple: take the spectrum of consumers - 1. low-information consumers purchase what marketing tells them are the latest innovations/advances, in this case disc-brakes, 2. high-information consumers buy disc brakes for the same reason that they'd avoid a bike with clearance for only narrow tires. They know the industry is driven by planned obselescence. Speaking of Factor, I purchased a ONE with rim brakes knowing in a few years it's gong to be increasingly challenging to buy rim brake wheels and that it will be challenging to find non-hydraulic shifters if they need replacing. But disc brakes on an aero bike are ridiculous in my opinion and put an already heavyish bike over the threshold of what I'd want. As a result of going with rim brakes on the ONE and some semi-WW other bits, it weighs right around 7kg with 50mm clinchers - a lot lighter than so-called light disc brakes - as the light vs aero thread on here shows, it's a faster combination than almost any other disc-equipped bike built in the last few years (including the high elevation gain modeled course).

spdntrxi
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by spdntrxi

openwheelracing wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:23 pm
LOL rim brake has already exploded in growth due to the bike boom. Even with the limited selection forced by manufacturers

He is smart to wait for next gen disc calipers/shifters cause current gen is just not there yet. The GRX stuff better than road stuff.
you blame covid for that... hell 26inch MTB rust buckets for purchase at yard sales where flying off the driveway.
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openwheelracing
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by openwheelracing

spdntrxi wrote:
Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:06 am
openwheelracing wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:23 pm
LOL rim brake has already exploded in growth due to the bike boom. Even with the limited selection forced by manufacturers

He is smart to wait for next gen disc calipers/shifters cause current gen is just not there yet. The GRX stuff better than road stuff.
you blame covid for that... hell 26inch MTB rust buckets for purchase at yard sales where flying off the driveway.
Plenty of commuter bikes out there ready for you to buy. Many with basket for grocery. :beerchug:

If you think demand would be the same if COVID didn't happen, then we live in different Worlds.

tomato
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by tomato

openwheelracing wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:23 pm
LOL rim brake has already exploded in growth due to the bike boom.
Wow, what planet is this happening on?

openwheelracing
Posts: 308
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by openwheelracing

tomato wrote:
Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:50 am
openwheelracing wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:23 pm
LOL rim brake has already exploded in growth due to the bike boom.
Wow, what planet is this happening on?
Earth my friend. Earth.

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

tjvirden wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:17 pm

Much as I love riding my rim brake bike, I won't be holding my breath for a revival.....
To be fair, we are seeing a revival in classic geometry steel and titanium bikes, as "some" people get sick of the aero/disc/electro arms race. But this will always be a niche customer group now.

And GCN has mutated into an even larger shill than durianrider, which is quite disappointing. It is only palatable because of their occasionally interesting videos and their general pleasant demeanor.
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iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

tjvirden wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 10:03 am

From a design and manufacturing perspective, I don't see how a rim, for use with a rim brake, can offer those three things together: low weight, low drag and excellent braking wet or dry. What about the aero drag of the disc, I hear? Well, a rim caliper* with exposed cabling will roughly balance that........

*Edit: a standard, front-mounted caliper of course
The thing is though, the vast majority of recreational cyclists refuse to ride when it's wet outside. Just think about the cyclists in your region - how many are willing to go out for a ride when it's raining or rain is forecast?

For customers, the purchasing considerations are some combination of cool factor, low weight, aero, cost and reliability. Strangely enough, people will pay a premium for the cutting-edge benefits of lightweight and aero, but seem less interested in braking capability since nobody really wants to zip down a wet downhill at 80km/h where braking performance really matters b/c it's dangerous and nobody is being paid to put their lives at risk. In fact I'd dare say most recreational cyclists have never even gone 70km'h on their bikes, and maybe not even 60km/h, and you can't fault them for putting their safety first.
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iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

iggg wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 3:14 pm

5-7 years ago there were fewer disk-brake models than rim-disk ones. And yet, disks sold well and rims didn't - and manufacturers adopted to it by eventually phasing out rim brake models. Today, it would be a stupid business decision to invest into rim brakes - because there are too few people buying them. If there was more demand, you'd get tons of models right away. No demand, no models.
This is misleading though. People flocked to disc because it was presented by the industry as the new technology, with heavy implications that rim will be phased out. This was heavily reinforced by major teams using disc in the World Tour (marketing). Of course people aren't going to buy technology that will not be considered "cutting edge" and with lower resale value later on. There is no way rim sales could have kept up with this messaging.

It would have been a fairer comparison if the industry said clearly that "rim will continue to be used in the World Tour, and we will continue making and supporting rim as long as we have disc." Much like the choice between clincher/tubular/tubeless. But when you clearly say something is "old tech" and is on its way out, duh what do you expect.
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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

iheartbianchi wrote:
Mon Aug 09, 2021 7:39 am
iggg wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 3:14 pm

5-7 years ago there were fewer disk-brake models than rim-disk ones. And yet, disks sold well and rims didn't - and manufacturers adopted to it by eventually phasing out rim brake models. Today, it would be a stupid business decision to invest into rim brakes - because there are too few people buying them. If there was more demand, you'd get tons of models right away. No demand, no models.
This is misleading though. People flocked to disc because it was presented by the industry as the new technology, with heavy implications that rim will be phased out. This was heavily reinforced by major teams using disc in the World Tour (marketing). Of course people aren't going to buy technology that will not be considered "cutting edge" and with lower resale value later on. There is no way rim sales could have kept up with this messaging.

It would have been a fairer comparison if the industry said clearly that "rim will continue to be used in the World Tour, and we will continue making and supporting rim as long as we have disc." Much like the choice between clincher/tubular/tubeless. But when you clearly say something is "old tech" and is on its way out, duh what do you expect.

Your timeline doesn’t check out. Consumers were already switching en masse to disc in 2017, before disc had taken over the World Tour. The high-end market was late to the party.

No, I would say the tip of the spear was 1) MTB and 2) lower-end fitness/hybrids featuring Avid BB5/BB7 mechanical disc calipers.

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:30 am
iheartbianchi wrote:
Mon Aug 09, 2021 7:39 am
iggg wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 3:14 pm

5-7 years ago there were fewer disk-brake models than rim-disk ones. And yet, disks sold well and rims didn't - and manufacturers adopted to it by eventually phasing out rim brake models. Today, it would be a stupid business decision to invest into rim brakes - because there are too few people buying them. If there was more demand, you'd get tons of models right away. No demand, no models.
This is misleading though. People flocked to disc because it was presented by the industry as the new technology, with heavy implications that rim will be phased out. This was heavily reinforced by major teams using disc in the World Tour (marketing). Of course people aren't going to buy technology that will not be considered "cutting edge" and with lower resale value later on. There is no way rim sales could have kept up with this messaging.

It would have been a fairer comparison if the industry said clearly that "rim will continue to be used in the World Tour, and we will continue making and supporting rim as long as we have disc." Much like the choice between clincher/tubular/tubeless. But when you clearly say something is "old tech" and is on its way out, duh what do you expect.

Your timeline doesn’t check out. Consumers were already switching en masse to disc in 2017, before disc had taken over the World Tour. The high-end market was late to the party.

No, I would say the tip of the spear was 1) MTB and 2) lower-end fitness/hybrids featuring Avid BB5/BB7 mechanical disc calipers.
Plenty of news from 2016 and 2017 which heavily imply disc are better and are the future.

https://thebikeinstitute.ie/giant-road- ... echnology/

The "best road bikes" as reported by major news sources in 2017 are predominately disc (the trend of disc bikes winning "best bike" titles in publications actually started in 2016):

https://www.bikeradar.com/features/bike ... -the-year/

https://road.cc/content/feature/211096- ... e-and-more

https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-g ... ikes-2017/

Tom Boonen and pros singing the praises of disc brakes:

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/boonen ... hout-2017/

UCI approves discs again:

https://www.granfondoguide.com/Contents ... ing-events

The writing was on the wall as early as 2016 that rim brakes were more or less over in racing and high-end road bikes. 2017 really was the start of the end for rim brakes truly, as the industry and press pushed disc as the biggest and best thing to come. You really had to be a "rim brake nut" to ignore all the warning signs and spend $$$$ buying a high-end rim brake bike at this point. I mean that's why I ended up buying two rim brake bikes at this time, because it was the end of an era.

Boonen's statement that "It's the biggest improvement I've seen in my career" in 2017 was especially comical, given he was on a precipitous decline at that stage of his career. But hey, Specialized was paying him so who cares.
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Lewn777
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by Lewn777

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:19 pm
Lewn777 wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:17 pm

Sales is not evidence that disk brakes are better. It's just evidence that people like to buy shiny new things and fall for marketing.

You fighting strawmen again? I didn't mention any of this in context of disc brakes being better, only that the bottom fell out of the rim-brake bike market around the start of MY18. Accept that rim-brake bikes are now functionally extinct. They won't go away completely for an indeterminate amount of time, but there will never be growth in rim-brake bike sales again.
You talk about straw man arguments? This thread is about how someone won a stage of a grand tour on a rim bike, and you talk of disk brake sales as if they are evidence of the superiority of disk brake bikes. :roll:

usr
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by usr

“People flocked to disc because it was presented by the industry as the new technology“

Well, it was new technology. At least if you ignore the many years discs had been present in vehicles with wider tires ;)

But the tipover point was surprisingly late in my circles, I distinctly remember the "show-off sound" on large group rides to go from carbon to more carbon year over year, and from there to textured carbon, before suddenly dropping to the occasional ringing disc before right before the pandemic hiatus. Disc had been around already the entire time in question, but not as the dominant perception (just like carbon, textured or not, is still very much present)

Ypuh
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by Ypuh

iheartbianchi wrote:
Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:34 am
You really had to be a "rim brake nut" to ignore all the warning signs and spend $$$$ buying a high-end rim brake bike at this point. I mean that's why I ended up buying two rim brake bikes at this time, because it was the end of an era.
End of an era is usually a good point to purchase something (same applies to cars, laptops etc). You usually get a completely developed product without any of the initial hiccups at 50% of the cost. Newer systems are usually more expensive to buy, harder to maintain, limited by proprietary parts and rich with additional features that are (still) error prone.

This is quite universal, but 100% applies to disc brake bike frames and groupsets. Over the years prices will drop, compatibility increase, knowledge on maintenance improve, issues evened out etc.

Nearly each car/bike/component manufacturer goes through the same stage with each engine/large component update (good examples are Volswagen TSI's or PSA engines). They'll improve to the point there's limit margin and they need to invent a new generation where I'd always skip the first couple of batches/series.
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blutto
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by blutto

Lewn777 wrote:
Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:26 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:19 pm
Lewn777 wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:17 pm

Sales is not evidence that disk brakes are better. It's just evidence that people like to buy shiny new things and fall for marketing.

You fighting strawmen again? I didn't mention any of this in context of disc brakes being better, only that the bottom fell out of the rim-brake bike market around the start of MY18. Accept that rim-brake bikes are now functionally extinct. They won't go away completely for an indeterminate amount of time, but there will never be growth in rim-brake bike sales again.
You talk about straw man arguments? This thread is about how someone won a stage of a grand tour on a rim bike, and you talk of disk brake sales as if they are evidence of the superiority of disk brake bikes. :roll:
Yeah, the equivalent would be trumpeting the US sales of Ford F150's as evidence of the superiority of what is an over-weight gas guzzling vehicle, that handles like, uhhh, a truck, for the personal vehicle market. Read, it brings inferior performance to the plate, but somehow succeeds because its definitely on the shiny bauble du jour end of things ( and coincidentally a cash cow for the manufacturer who pushes the truck despite its bad fit for the real world requirements of the average consumer and now that I think of it the real world as well....read, they don't care...all that matters are the quarterlies..and keeping the circus going... ).

Cheers
Last edited by blutto on Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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MikeD
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by MikeD

Just give us choice in the marketplace. I don't care what people ride or what they prefer, but manufacturers are practically all disc these days. A friend of mine bought a new Trek. He said he wanted rim brakes but the bike came only with disc. That probably means I'll probably keep my old bike for quite a while longer.

I bought an Orbea Gain e-road bike. Came with disc only, but since it has room for 40mm tires (came with 28s), I kinda like the flexibility of that, but I've had noise and rubbing problems with the brakes.

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