Please don’t make this a rim vs disc bloodfest. Stage 17 won with rim brake

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

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tomato
Posts: 680
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:37 pm

by tomato

iggg wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 3:02 pm
tomato wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 7:13 pm
iggg wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:15 pm
Which marketing message, in your opinion, influenced me to buy disk brakes?
Advertising By bike manUfacturers can be verY subtle - you Don't always see It aS Clearly as you might think.
Haha, this is a good one. Too bad it's not how it works. Messaging like this is used when multiple brands are selling a similar product and are trying to differentiate themselves by pushing forward their brand - "Buy Specialed!" or "Buy Trek!". They can justify this by enumerating features that they believe are compelling to customers, like...disk brakes:) - but they must be sure it's indeed something customers want. No one is trying to sell you a car that smells like a horse for a premium - because horse smell does not sell.

Really, you keep blaming everyone but cyslists for the demise of rim brakes. There is no consipacy againt rim brakes, it's just customers stopped buying them (this happened first) and manufactures adapted to it by shifting attention to what customers want.
You’ve mistaken me for someone else.

iggg
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:10 pm

by iggg

tomato wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 4:17 pm
iggg wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 3:02 pm
tomato wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 7:13 pm
iggg wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:15 pm
Which marketing message, in your opinion, influenced me to buy disk brakes?
Advertising By bike manUfacturers can be verY subtle - you Don't always see It aS Clearly as you might think.
Haha, this is a good one. Too bad it's not how it works. Messaging like this is used when multiple brands are selling a similar product and are trying to differentiate themselves by pushing forward their brand - "Buy Specialed!" or "Buy Trek!". They can justify this by enumerating features that they believe are compelling to customers, like...disk brakes:) - but they must be sure it's indeed something customers want. No one is trying to sell you a car that smells like a horse for a premium - because horse smell does not sell.

Really, you keep blaming everyone but cyslists for the demise of rim brakes. There is no consipacy againt rim brakes, it's just customers stopped buying them (this happened first) and manufactures adapted to it by shifting attention to what customers want.
You’ve mistaken me for someone else.
Fair, my fault, i made a bad assumption

by Weenie


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TheDoctor
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Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:56 pm

by TheDoctor

I think by now a mod should delete the "don't" in the topic title... :D

openwheelracing
Posts: 308
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:41 am

by openwheelracing

Cherry picking sales data spoon fed by manufacturers to make a flawed argument. Discs sold faster cause market already flooded with rim brakes. As I mentioned, if you have been riding rim for decades of course you will try the newest toy. Human nature. That was before bike boom. New riders now are stuck with inflated disc pricing and higher weight. Perfectly setup for introduction of "light weight" "aero" rim brake bikes again.

Why would people."flock" to buy heavier road bike at higher cost? Marketing? Perhaps best colors disc only? Perhaps, just perhaps everything is disc only? LOL.

TobinHatesYou
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

openwheelracing wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 8:47 pm
Cherry picking sales data spoon fed by manufacturers to make a flawed argument. Discs sold faster cause market already flooded with rim brakes. As I mentioned, if you have been riding rim for decades of course you will try the newest toy. Human nature. That was before bike boom. New riders now are stuck with inflated disc pricing and higher weight. Perfectly setup for introduction of "light weight" "aero" rim brake bikes again.

Why would people."flock" to buy heavier road bike at higher cost? Marketing? Perhaps best colors disc only? Perhaps, just perhaps everything is disc only? LOL.

How is "road group sales" cherry-picked data? Also if you look into the data, disc brake sales are most popular with first-time road buyers. Anyone who already owns a bike is a harder sell. Anyone with multiple rim-brake wheelsets is an even harder sell. As I mentioned earlier, the owner of the local shop I call "homebase" still rides rim brakes, not because he hates disc, but because his two-generations old Emonda still functions. His next bike will be disc though.

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Lewn777
Posts: 1261
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:35 am

by Lewn777

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:54 pm
Flasher wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:25 pm

As opposed to the bullying and ridiculing group that thinks spending more on a disc brake bike makes them somehow superior, this is Weight Weenies and not Bloated-Bikes.com.

Remember it's not about the bike, the fittest person that brakes the least wins!
What we don't do is call never-disc users marketing victims, sheep, noobs, etc.
Why not? Just call a spade a spade.

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Lewn777
Posts: 1261
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:35 am

by Lewn777

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:11 pm
openwheelracing wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 8:47 pm
Cherry picking sales data spoon fed by manufacturers to make a flawed argument. Discs sold faster cause market already flooded with rim brakes. As I mentioned, if you have been riding rim for decades of course you will try the newest toy. Human nature. That was before bike boom. New riders now are stuck with inflated disc pricing and higher weight. Perfectly setup for introduction of "light weight" "aero" rim brake bikes again.

Why would people."flock" to buy heavier road bike at higher cost? Marketing? Perhaps best colors disc only? Perhaps, just perhaps everything is disc only? LOL.

How is "road group sales" cherry-picked data? Also if you look into the data, disc brake sales are most popular with first-time road buyers. Anyone who already owns a bike is a harder sell. Anyone with multiple rim-brake wheelsets is an even harder sell. As I mentioned earlier, the owner of the local shop I call "homebase" still rides rim brakes, not because he hates disc, but because his two-generations old Emonda still functions. His next bike will be disc though.
Sales is not evidence that disk brakes are better. It's just evidence that people like to buy shiny new things and fall for marketing.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 10142
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Lewn777 wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:17 pm

Sales is not evidence that disk brakes are better. It's just evidence that people like to buy shiny new things and fall for marketing.

You fighting strawmen again? I didn't mention any of this in context of disc brakes being better, only that the bottom fell out of the rim-brake bike market around the start of MY18. Accept that rim-brake bikes are now functionally extinct. They won't go away completely for an indeterminate amount of time, but there will never be growth in rim-brake bike sales again.

openwheelracing
Posts: 308
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:41 am

by openwheelracing

LOL rim brake has already exploded in growth due to the bike boom. Even with the limited selection forced by manufacturers

He is smart to wait for next gen disc calipers/shifters cause current gen is just not there yet. The GRX stuff better than road stuff.

usr
Posts: 562
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:58 pm

by usr

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:11 pm

How is "road group sales" cherry-picked data? Also if you look into the data, disc brake sales are most popular with first-time road buyers.
Yeah, the first time buyers factor is hugely underestimated, by both sides I think. The reason first timers prefer disc is because they believe that the gap is much bigger than even the most enthusiastic "disc brake changed my life" with serious road rim experience would say.

First timers often know some old rim brakes of the cheap commuter type that were so bad that even the first MTB cantilever were a revelation (those that were "so good" that eventually component makers dared to introduce levers with room for only two fingers). The problem is: road rim brakes look kind of similar to those hilariously bad commuter calipers and if you have experience with those and with some modern disc MTB or commuter, you wouldn't dare to ride rim on even a -2%. If your ancient commuter experience happens to involve a steel rim, you wouldn't trust rim braking even on -1%. Unless it looks like an MTB canti/V. I believe that before disc, some of that kind of first time buyer even bought CX for the cantilevers without any intention to ever go unpaved, not understanding that narrow-tire calipers are worlds ahead.

But disc affinity of repeat buyers is also easily underestimated: repeat buyers have all the bike they need, that look for an excuse to treat themselves with that new-bike-glow. As new bike excuses go, disc surely isn't the worst of them. (for me it was 11s+1, 11-29 instead of 12-29. Do I enjoy the 11t? Yes, occasionally. Do I miss it when riding the 11s that ends at 50/12? Hardly ever, and not much if it happens)

spartacus
Posts: 765
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:53 pm

by spartacus

openwheelracing wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:23 pm
The GRX stuff better than road stuff.
What? lol...

iggg
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:10 pm

by iggg

openwheelracing wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:23 pm
LOL rim brake has already exploded in growth due to the bike boom.
I don't want to imply you are making it up...but have you got any data to prove your statement? Non-cherry-picked, non-spoon-fed sources would be especially appreciated.

openwheelracing
Posts: 308
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:41 am

by openwheelracing

spartacus wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 11:13 pm
openwheelracing wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:23 pm
The GRX stuff better than road stuff.
What? lol...
You should try GRX levers. I am in process to replace 105 hydraulic lever to GRX600 lever. I feel both ergonomic and modulation are better on the GRX side. There is a lot of room for improvement on current road disc setup. I am excited to see the new group sets from Shimano.

spartacus
Posts: 765
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:53 pm

by spartacus

openwheelracing wrote:
Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:38 am
spartacus wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 11:13 pm
openwheelracing wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:23 pm
The GRX stuff better than road stuff.
What? lol...
You should try GRX levers. I am in process to replace 105 hydraulic lever to GRX600 lever. I feel both ergonomic and modulation are better on the GRX side. There is a lot of room for improvement on current road disc setup. I am excited to see the new group sets from Shimano.
I have a GRX bike in the house and multiple other shimano bikes, I guess I can't really tell a difference between the GRX brakes and newest gen ultegra brakes honestly.

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stevesbike
Posts: 282
Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:33 pm

by stevesbike

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 3:06 am
openwheelracing wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:04 am

Saying something is reality does not make it true.

We don't know exactly consumers "flocked" to disc.
That's marketing talk. We only know everything sells out extremely fast. I just bought a new bike for wife, and discs are easier to buy, but rim brakes are impossible to find.

Ask literally any bike shop owner. Ask Rob Gitelis, owner of Factor, a company that still makes rim-brake O2 VAMs. Ask wheel brands and brake pad suppliers.

Why should I believe YOU over the LBS owner I’ve known for over a decade? He still rides a rim-brake bike, btw.
The answer is pretty simple: take the spectrum of consumers - 1. low-information consumers purchase what marketing tells them are the latest innovations/advances, in this case disc-brakes, 2. high-information consumers buy disc brakes for the same reason that they'd avoid a bike with clearance for only narrow tires. They know the industry is driven by planned obselescence. Speaking of Factor, I purchased a ONE with rim brakes knowing in a few years it's gong to be increasingly challenging to buy rim brake wheels and that it will be challenging to find non-hydraulic shifters if they need replacing.

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