Please don’t make this a rim vs disc bloodfest. Stage 17 won with rim brake

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

Moderator: robbosmans

Locked
tomato
Posts: 680
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:37 pm

by tomato

iggg wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:15 pm
Which marketing message, in your opinion, influenced me to buy disk brakes?
Advertising By bike manUfacturers can be verY subtle - you Don't always see It aS Clearly as you might think.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



MoPho
Posts: 766
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:48 pm
Location: NorCal

by MoPho

tomato wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 7:13 pm

Advertising By bike manUfacturers can be verY subtle - you Don't always see It aS Clearly as you might think.
You win at internets today :lol:

Lina
Posts: 524
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm

by Lina

MoPho wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:06 am
openwheelracing wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 10:38 pm
World is not black and white my friend. Enjoy some colors. All I said is there is a layer of marketing involved. There is nothing wrong with making money. Everyone should make money and lots of it. Me too I wish I make even more than I already do.
But it is kind of black and white, if you are going to dismiss the word of media like GCN as biased by marketing than you have to apply it to everything they say. It is not just disc brakes they are being paid to promote*
You can't be selectively against marketing just because it is something you don't want. I keep seeing this over and over in these R v. D discussions, people claiming that disc is marketing BS and people who buy them are "suckers" or "sheep" and then they are over in another thread measurebating over the manufacturer claimed watts savings of the oversized pullies they just bought or something :lol:



*and who knows if they are even being paid to promote disc brakes specifically
Considering the entire business plan for GCN is to do paid promotion for bike brands, so yes take everything they say with that in mind.

cveks wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 6:32 am
You are completely right. I remember past when all bikes used like 2 bottom bracket standards . BSA or ITA which were same actually. After that we had BB30 which was far superior than dozen more like PF30, BB86, BB386 all superior and offering better power transfer and lower bike weight than actual BSA .

After some time I just heard Specialized Trek and other brands are gone back to BSA? Reason - make more profit.

They cant make every frameset equal with pressfit bottom brackets and to lower production costs they went back to BSA.

Some day same will be with disc brakes.... People will realize that they are not needed in road cycling because rim brakes are superior.
Oh no, he's fallen for the threaded is superior to press fit marketing. Yes the reason brands are going back to threaded is so that they can make more money. The "problem" with press fit is that their QC isn't good enough. Going back to threaded won't actually fix that, the QC will be just as bad as before. You just won't be able to notice the problems it causes other than you go through bearings.

User avatar
cveks
Posts: 351
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:15 pm
Contact:

by cveks

Lina wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:20 pm
MoPho wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:06 am
openwheelracing wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 10:38 pm
World is not black and white my friend. Enjoy some colors. All I said is there is a layer of marketing involved. There is nothing wrong with making money. Everyone should make money and lots of it. Me too I wish I make even more than I already do.
But it is kind of black and white, if you are going to dismiss the word of media like GCN as biased by marketing than you have to apply it to everything they say. It is not just disc brakes they are being paid to promote*
You can't be selectively against marketing just because it is something you don't want. I keep seeing this over and over in these R v. D discussions, people claiming that disc is marketing BS and people who buy them are "suckers" or "sheep" and then they are over in another thread measurebating over the manufacturer claimed watts savings of the oversized pullies they just bought or something :lol:



*and who knows if they are even being paid to promote disc brakes specifically
Considering the entire business plan for GCN is to do paid promotion for bike brands, so yes take everything they say with that in mind.

cveks wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 6:32 am
You are completely right. I remember past when all bikes used like 2 bottom bracket standards . BSA or ITA which were same actually. After that we had BB30 which was far superior than dozen more like PF30, BB86, BB386 all superior and offering better power transfer and lower bike weight than actual BSA .

After some time I just heard Specialized Trek and other brands are gone back to BSA? Reason - make more profit.

They cant make every frameset equal with pressfit bottom brackets and to lower production costs they went back to BSA.

Some day same will be with disc brakes.... People will realize that they are not needed in road cycling because rim brakes are superior.
Oh no, he's fallen for the threaded is superior to press fit marketing. Yes the reason brands are going back to threaded is so that they can make more money. The "problem" with press fit is that their QC isn't good enough. Going back to threaded won't actually fix that, the QC will be just as bad as before. You just won't be able to notice the problems it causes other than you go through bearings.

Never had a problem with pressfit bottom brackets . Its same that QC of Specialized/Trek is so low these days, so they must switch back to BSA bottom bracket. Thats why I dont buy them...

openwheelracing
Posts: 308
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:41 am

by openwheelracing

Some of you are missing my point completely. Allow me to be extremely short and direct:

Can't say new buyers "prefer" disc brake when their only choice is disc brake. Specialized and Trek only offer disc on the high end, as if disc is "better". Clever marketing imo and it increases revenue with disc being much higher cost. Walk into a Giant dealer? Can't find a half decent rim brake TCR cause they get snatched up first months ago by #saverimbrake crowd.

Those sales figures are misleading when it is driven by the manufacturers, not consumers. Anyone know how Rolex operates?

tomato
Posts: 680
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:37 pm

by tomato

Some of you are missing reality completely. Allow me to be extremely short and direct:

You can say new buyers "prefer" disc brakes because, when they had a choice, they overwhelmingly chose disc brakes over rim brakes. Walk into a Giant dealer? Can't find a half decent disc brake TCR because they got snatched up months ago by #IbuythebrakesIprefer crowd.

The sales figures are driven by consumer demand, not manufacturers. Anyone know how capitalism operates?

blutto
Posts: 154
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:09 pm

by blutto

Just stumbled across an article that has some points of interest...starting with a point about mark-ups....
" Capitalism works best when competition is strong. When companies have too much power, they are able to charge consumers far more than it costs to make a product or deliver a service, generating huge profits. Companies facing fewer challengers also have less incentive to innovate or pay their employees well. A world dominated by powerful companies may also lead to slower economic growth.

Many researchers believe we already live in this world. Economists Jan De Loecker of Princteon and Jan Eeckhout of University College London are sounding the alarm particularly loudly. In 2017, they reported that markups in the US, defined as the amount above cost at which a product is sold, had jumped from about 18 percent in 1980 to 70 percent in 2014. They suggested that this rise could account for many of the problems in the US economy, from inequality to fewer startups.
Now, in 2018, De Loecker and Eeckhout are back with another paper about the power of companies, and it’s more bad news (pdf). According to their analysis of the financial statements 70,000 companies across 134 countries, the rise in markups is a worldwide phenomenon. They find that while global average markups were less than 10 percent in 1980, they were at almost 60 percent in 2016. For most countries, the companies in the dataset represent more than two-thirds of that country’s economy. "
That increase in margins a function of perhaps saving money on labour by moving production to China and the retail prices becoming very " downward sticky" ( read, the saving in cost of labour were never passed onto the consumer ? ).

Another interesting development is where a very visible chunk of this profit margin went to....
" The researchers who disagree with their methodology think De Loecker and Eeckhout are missing some big, important costs. For example, University of Chicago economics PhD student James Traina points out that costs of goods sold ignores most of a company’s marketing and management expenses. Marketing and management costs have skyrocketed in the US since 1980, and he finds that when these costs are included the rise in US markups is much smaller. De Loecker and Eeckhout dispute Traina’s methodology, contending that many marketing and management costs are not truly short-term in nature.

The IMF has since weighed in, and come down on the side of De Loecker and Eeckhout. In a 2018 research paper, the IMF found that markups have indeed increased across the world; even when you account for marketing and management expenses, the rise has been dramatic. It suggests that the companies with the highest markups invest the least, basking in their market power and resting on their laurels. "
And reltively huge investments in marketing are a pretty darn effective way to get rid of smaller competition that can't compete in the battle of brand building and will eventually go quietly into the night. It also helps explain why a large part of the cycling community woke up one morning craving disc brake equipped bikes ( read, the magic behind the magic of the market place ). And unfortunately it also reduces innovation because monopoly doesn't really rely on it.

And in many ways disc brakes are not unlike the digital audio revolution of days gone by, old technology which was not introduced because it provided a significant performance increase, but was a power move by large players that wanted to reassert control over an industrial sector that was running a bit too wild for their tastes ( and because they could ). And besides monopoly capitalism is a very easy way to make money....though in the long it only helps the bottom line ( and not necessarily the consumer who is mostly reduced to simply rank ordering brand names...at inflated prices that don't accurately reflect costs of production which throws the more traditional producer/consumer relationship way out of whack ).

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/do-c ... ket-newtab

Cheers
Last edited by blutto on Sat Aug 07, 2021 11:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Lina
Posts: 524
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm

by Lina

openwheelracing wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:47 pm
Some of you are missing my point completely. Allow me to be extremely short and direct:

Can't say new buyers "prefer" disc brake when their only choice is disc brake. Specialized and Trek only offer disc on the high end, as if disc is "better". Clever marketing imo and it increases revenue with disc being much higher cost. Walk into a Giant dealer? Can't find a half decent rim brake TCR cause they get snatched up first months ago by #saverimbrake crowd.

Those sales figures are misleading when it is driven by the manufacturers, not consumers. Anyone know how Rolex operates?
We've already been over this in this thread. Both Specialized and Trek offered rim and disc in the last generation. They noticed that practically no one wants rim brakes so they phased them out on the new generation. If people had bought rim brakes the new Emonda and Tarmac would have rim brake options.

tjvirden
Posts: 540
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:21 pm

by tjvirden

blutto wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 10:54 pm
Just stumbled across an article that has some points of interest...starting with a point about mark-ups....
....
[snip]
....
And huge investments in marketing are a pretty darn effective way to get rid of smaller competition that can't compete in the battle of brand building and will eventually go quietly into the night. It also helps explain why a large part of the cycling community woke up one morning craving disc brake equipped bikes ( read, the magic behind the magic of the market place ). And unfortunately it also reduces innovation because monopoly doesn't really rely on it.

And in many ways disc brakes are not unlike the digital audio revolution of days gone by, old technology which was not introduced because it provided a significant performance increase, but was a power move by large players that wanted to reassert control over an industrial sector that was running a bit too wild for their tastes ( and because they could ). And besides monopoly capitalism is a very easy way to make money....though in the long it only helps the bottom line ( and not necessarily the consumer who is mostly reduced to simply rank ordering brand names...at inflated prices that don't accurately reflect costs of production which throws the more traditional producer/consumer relationship way out of whack ).
...
[snip]
...
Cheers
Although often interesting, I don't find general economic studies (averages of large numbers of companies in this case) useful when it comes to cycling related discussion. For instance, can anyone suggest an example of a cycling company that has monopoly power? Please understand what monopoly is before replying :thumbup:

As for the digital audio revolution - there can be a very significant performance increase.......depending upon what and how you measure :wink:
So in that sense disc brakes are similar :)

Remind me, why did cyclists bother to move on from Ordinarys? Presumably the Safety is all about the marketing only - especially the name - so everyone has been hoodwinked all this time.......
Lina wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 10:56 pm
We've already been over this in this thread. Both Specialized and Trek offered rim and disc in the last generation. They noticed that practically no one wants rim brakes so they phased them out on the new generation. If people had bought rim brakes the new Emonda and Tarmac would have rim brake options.
This is reality.
We can argue about why buyers - generally - flocked to discs, but the reality is that they have.
tomato wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 7:13 pm
iggg wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:15 pm
Which marketing message, in your opinion, influenced me to buy disk brakes?
Advertising by bike manufacturers can be very subtle - you don't always see it as clearly as you might think.
Lol
[I think it could have been a fraction better, but it was top drawer!]
Last edited by tjvirden on Sat Aug 07, 2021 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

smartyiak
Posts: 264
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:20 pm

by smartyiak

tomato wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 7:13 pm
iggg wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:15 pm
Which marketing message, in your opinion, influenced me to buy disk brakes?
Advertising By bike manUfacturers can be verY subtle - you Don't always see It aS Clearly as you might think.
That is PERFECT!

blutto
Posts: 154
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:09 pm

by blutto

depending upon what and how you measure
Kinda curious what exactly you would be measuring and how ?

Cheers

tjvirden
Posts: 540
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:21 pm

by tjvirden

Well, personal preference certainly comes into it, but I'm really thinking of a big picture - digital enables all sorts of things that can't otherwise happen, such as Spotify.......which I don't use, but many people enjoy. Discs on road bikes isn't going to change the world like digital audio, but offers some advantages, as well as some disadvantages of course. I've still not bought a new disc brake bike......(parts not including frameset, yes). One day, I shall.

openwheelracing
Posts: 308
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:41 am

by openwheelracing

Lina wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 10:56 pm
openwheelracing wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:47 pm
Some of you are missing my point completely. Allow me to be extremely short and direct:

Can't say new buyers "prefer" disc brake when their only choice is disc brake. Specialized and Trek only offer disc on the high end, as if disc is "better". Clever marketing imo and it increases revenue with disc being much higher cost. Walk into a Giant dealer? Can't find a half decent rim brake TCR cause they get snatched up first months ago by #saverimbrake crowd.

Those sales figures are misleading when it is driven by the manufacturers, not consumers. Anyone know how Rolex operates?
We've already been over this in this thread. Both Specialized and Trek offered rim and disc in the last generation. They noticed that practically no one wants rim brakes so they phased them out on the new generation. If people had bought rim brakes the new Emonda and Tarmac would have rim brake options.

If I believed everything Rolex says I would have purchased the most bling two tone Daytona with rainbow stones. Nice marketing work "educating" consumers to buy heavier, more expensive but hey they are big upgrades cause "aero". If "practically no one wants rim brakes" then why is rim/disc such a hot debate topic? In most discussion I see more people want rim still. The evidence is quite obvious.

Before 2020 there was no bike boom. The same guys/gals buying "new bikes" already rode rim brakes for decades. Disc was the new thing and discounts were plenty.

openwheelracing
Posts: 308
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:41 am

by openwheelracing

[quote=
This is reality.
We can argue about why buyers - generally - flocked to discs, but the reality is that they have.


[/quote]

Saying something is reality does not make it true.

We don't know exactly consumers "flocked" to disc.
That's marketing talk. We only know everything sells out extremely fast. I just bought a new bike for wife, and discs are easier to buy, but rim brakes are impossible to find.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



TobinHatesYou
Posts: 10142
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

openwheelracing wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:04 am

Saying something is reality does not make it true.

We don't know exactly consumers "flocked" to disc.
That's marketing talk. We only know everything sells out extremely fast. I just bought a new bike for wife, and discs are easier to buy, but rim brakes are impossible to find.

Ask literally any bike shop owner. Ask Rob Gitelis, owner of Factor, a company that still makes rim-brake O2 VAMs. Ask wheel brands and brake pad suppliers.

Why should I believe YOU over the LBS owner I’ve known for over a decade? He still rides a rim-brake bike, btw.

Locked