Please don’t make this a rim vs disc bloodfest. Stage 17 won with rim brake

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

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cveks
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by cveks

Mocs123 wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:43 pm
It could be that there was a weight savings for those riders to ride rim brakes, at least that would be my assumption.

If the UCI was to lower the 6.8kg weight limit to say 5.8kg, rim brakes might have a revival, but as the major brands start to get disc brake bikes down to 6.8kg disc will likely completely take over the pro peleton in a few years. Each brake type has it's advantages, but brands seem to want to sell disc brake bikes, so that's what they push.
Of course they want to sell disc brakes because they earn ton more with groupsets. Look SRAM Rival comparision I put in place. Whole groupset with rim brakes costs 390 without taxes on bike24. Only Rival shifters for discs costs 470 euro on same shop site.

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cveks
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CasualRider wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:17 am
I see your points and we're mostly on the same page. But I just can't see rim brakes in lets say 5 years from now on any bike.

System weight is important so unless one can't get any leaner and faster you shouldn't worry too much of 1 lb weight difference in bikes. In reality it translates to less than 0.5-1% of total system weight.

I totally get that WW is of a hobby.
They will always be rim brake groupsets and framesets because there is demand for that.

From both amateur/casual riders + pro peloton riders.

One major advantage of rim brakes over disc brakes is also servicability .

Rim brakes are easy to service by any rider - disc brakes are not.

For example my mechanic , charges nothing for changing or adjusting rim brakes but he charges a lot for discs .

One guy had broken handlebar with bike with disc brakes . He charged him more than 150 euros to change handlebar, install everything back.

For rim brakes you just remove shifters on side of bike together with cables put handlebar back and install shifters easily again. More practical and easy to use.

I am not telling all people should rike rim brakes. I just say that we at least have option to choose what we want. But major bike brands are removing that from us . Most of them make framesets today as disc brake only option. I will never buy disc frameset. Period.

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cveks
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Shpox wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:21 pm
wheelsONfire wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:34 am
The industry always find means to boost the progress of what they offer, but that simply isn't the whole story.
You make some good points. This almost reminds me of the skinny tyres era, where skinny meant faster, but now comfort with fatter tyres has entered the chat.

I think rider fatigue isn't really a metric measured. How comfortable someone is over a long-distance means just as much.
I'm disappointed with the integrated direction also, although I understand it. It's all become too serious, each tried tracked on strava so you can beat your old one. Do you need to have a race every ride?

Go riding without a bike computer and I'd best you would enjoy it more.
Personally I dont see any comfort improvement by going from 25mm to 23mm tires. Recently I put 25 mm Vittoria Corsa tires on my training bike Scott CR1 Pro , but I found that due bad rear zone design tires often scratch on left side of frameset so I remove them and put Continental GP 5000 in place - 23 mm wide. I did not notice any comfort change . So for me comfort comes from frameset itself not tires. Difference between 23 and 25 mm tires in comfort for me is really minimal . Almost non measurable.

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cveks
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smartyiak wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:05 pm
kar wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:24 am
We do not discuss one more important factor: the consumer. In the last decade, people are getting fatter and fatter in the developed world, particularly the urban population. Google it, all the data is available.
So they need to put brakes (Disc, of course) in eating and then they will appreciate rim brakes.

If rim brakes die in the next 5 years or so, it is not because they are not a good system. They are not good in all situations for heavy system weight. No wonder American bike companies are in the forefront of killing rim brakes.
I like it...my favorite explanation yet!

I prefer rim brakes and it has NOTHING to do with weight or aero. I live in Delaware, USA...there are no mountains here. Rim brakes have two cables and four pads...that's it. No fluid, no rubbing, easy adjustment. I keep seeing new bikes with hidden cables...they look fantastic...until I read: cables will have to be disconnected and cut...possibly brakes will have to be re-bled.

With rim brakes, even with hidden cables, the whole event would take 20min (cut housing, route cable, adjust)...I just don't want to deal with it. Don't want to deal with brake rub, warped discs, rebleeds. I deal with it on my MTB b/c there's a real improvement w/ discs on the trail. For where I live, there's no real improvement on the road. Rim brakes are simpler, easier, and work just fine...that's why I hope they don't get phased out (or I can keep finding NOS rim frames).
This exactly happen with bike I was talking about with broken handlebar. Cables needed to be cut , and brakes rebled . That cost the guy 150 euros. For example I pay for complete bike installation to him somewhere around 15 euros , so its like 10 times less. My mechanic prefer DI2 and discs and say to all his customers they should switch . Why ? Because he earn / charge you much more if you ride DI2 and discs!

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cveks
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tomato wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:05 pm
MikeD wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:00 pm
stevesbike wrote: 1. The roughly pound weight savings of a rim setup will allow for deeper profile/deeper section wheels, so the rim brake bike will always have an advantage over a disc brake bike of equal weight -see the thread aero vs weight with plots and aero rim brakes are all the fastest (plotting time on courses with varying climbing).
Are you sure it's not more than a pound? Don't forget the heavier frame and fork required for disc brakes.
Many good disc-brake frames weigh the same as their rim-brake counterparts. The overall weight difference is about one-half pound for these bikes, when built up.
Thats not true. I messured all parts and difference is 500-650 grams depending which system and discs do you use.

In weight difference is like installing Tiagra on bike over Dura Ace.

Look bike prices on bike24 . Almost all bikes with disc brakes in "normal" price range from major brands are now 8+ kg heavy. To get bike with less than 7.5 kg you need to pay at least 7000 euros for it. If not 10.000+ . In comparison bike friend of mine bought Trek Emonda with Dura Ace 9000 rim brakes few years ago for just 2200 euros, new one on same site.

Price increase is insane. You pay like 3-4 more to get more heaving bike than 4-5 years before.

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cveks
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tommasini wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:55 am
Hey guys - you're deviating back into the endless disc vs rim debate. How about we focus on the original intent. Why did top pro riders choose rim vs disc on critical races. Originally we focused on stages 17 and 18 of the tour. But now more recently the Mens Olympic RR saw them chosen by the 1st (ok std team set up) but also the 3rd and 6th finishers (they rode both rim and disc at the tour). Let's debate why did these riders choose rim?
Simply reason was that on that route they have ridden , with ton of climbs rim brakes are far more superior.

Simply rim brake bike is more aero, and gives you weight advantage over your competition . And thats all you need. As somone said here, if UCI change weight limit rule to 5.8 kg nobody on pro peloton would ride discs , if they have option to choose - because weight difference would be much higher. But most guys in pro peloton ride discs simply because they dont have any other option anymore. Like Team Jumbo Visma. Their Cervelo's are now disc brakes only.

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by tomato

cveks wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:59 am
tomato wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:05 pm
MikeD wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:00 pm
stevesbike wrote: 1. The roughly pound weight savings of a rim setup will allow for deeper profile/deeper section wheels, so the rim brake bike will always have an advantage over a disc brake bike of equal weight -see the thread aero vs weight with plots and aero rim brakes are all the fastest (plotting time on courses with varying climbing).
Are you sure it's not more than a pound? Don't forget the heavier frame and fork required for disc brakes.
Many good disc-brake frames weigh the same as their rim-brake counterparts. The overall weight difference is about one-half pound for these bikes, when built up.
Thats not true. I messured all parts and difference is 500-650 grams depending which system and discs do you use.
You mentioned Pogacar in a previous post. He rides a Colnago V3Rs with Campy SR EPS 12. The frame weight is 780g for either disc or rim brake version. The disc brake version of SR EPS 12 weighs 2505g, versus 2255g for the rim brake version. He uses a few different wheels, one of which is Campagnolo Bora WTO 45, which weigh in at 1520g for the disc brake version, and 1496 g for the rim brake version. So, the total weight penalty for the disc brake bike is 274g (0.6 lbs).

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by tomato

cveks wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:23 am
Of course they want to sell disc brakes because they earn ton more with groupsets. Look SRAM Rival comparision I put in place. Whole groupset with rim brakes costs 390 without taxes on bike24. Only Rival shifters for discs costs 470 euro on same shop site.
A higher price does not necessarily mean higher profit.

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by MoPho

cveks wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:23 am

Of course they want to sell disc brakes because they earn ton more with groupsets. Look SRAM Rival comparision I put in place. Whole groupset with rim brakes costs 390 without taxes on bike24. Only Rival shifters for discs costs 470 euro on same shop site.
As was already pointed out to you the first time you posted this nonsense, just because something is more expensive doesn't mean there is more profit
Additionally, it's called supply and demand, no one is buying rim brakes so perhaps they are selling at a discount.
Furthermore, I just looked up the difference in price for Sram Rival here, full groupset, disc is only $117 more expensive than the rim brake version. Just for the brake levers/shifter it is roughly the same price.

One major advantage of rim brakes over disc brakes is also servicability .

Rim brakes are easy to service by any rider - disc brakes are not.
My disc brakes are easy to service, in fact I don't have to do much regular service to them besides clean them and change brake pads, just like rim brakes.
If you can't do the once a year brake bleed, you are not capable of changing the once a year brake cable either. And having worked at a bike shop, you would be surprised at how many people can't service their rim brakes.
One guy had broken handlebar with bike with disc brakes . He charged him more than 150 euros to change handlebar, install everything back.

For rim brakes you just remove shifters on side of bike together with cables put handlebar back and install shifters easily again. More practical and easy to use.
He charges that because of internal routing not because of disc brakes. My disc bikes don't have internal routing, changing the bars is exactly the same as changing with a rim brake bike.
Thats not true. I messured all parts and difference is 500-650 grams depending which system and discs do you use.
My friend had a near identical TCR rim brake to my disc brake version, he had zipp wheels and I had Enve (which were heavier), the difference between them was 360g. My empty coffee mug weighs 402g, can barely feel the weight of it when I pick it up! if that amount of weight is holding you back you've got bigger problems
Simply reason was that on that route they have ridden , with ton of climbs rim brakes are far more superior.
In your mind perhaps
if UCI change weight limit rule to 5.8 kg nobody on pro peloton would ride discs , if they have option to choose - because weight difference would be much higher. But most guys in pro peloton ride discs simply because they dont have any other option anymore. Like Team Jumbo Visma. Their Cervelo's are now disc brakes only.
Well seeing how most ride disc already, and soon all will, no one will be at a "disadvantage" to the "superior" rim brake now will they? :roll:
And lowering the weight limit isn't going to make racing any more exciting, so what would be the point except for you anti-dixxers to say "nanny nanny boo boo"?




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iggg
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by iggg

You make a statement about a piece of equipment winning a stage - of course the whole thread will be about the piece of equipment, what did you expect would happen?

I also heard another stage was won with a 110mm stem!

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by iggg

cveks wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:51 am
So for me comfort comes from frameset itself not tires.
For everyone, including yourself, comfort predomanantly comes from tire pressure (assuming your bike fit works for you).
Wider tire => lower pressure for the same weight => more comfort. There are lots of calculators and charts available. Here is one: https://wpp.crw.org/safety/2012/12nov-pressure.php, which shows 15psi difference between 23mm and 25mm for my weight - this is a lot.

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by MikeD

tomato wrote:
cveks wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:23 am
Of course they want to sell disc brakes because they earn ton more with groupsets. Look SRAM Rival comparision I put in place. Whole groupset with rim brakes costs 390 without taxes on bike24. Only Rival shifters for discs costs 470 euro on same shop site.
A higher price does not necessarily mean higher profit.
Tell that to Apple.

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by MikeD

MoPho wrote: If you can't do the once a year brake bleed, you are not capable of changing the once a year brake cable either. And having worked at a bike shop, you would be surprised at how many people can't service their rim brakes
.
Brake cables last many years and, unlike derailleur cables, don't need to be changed annually.

Disc pads wear about 5x as fast as rim brake pads. Brakes need to be bled occasionally. Calipers need to be recentered because of rubbing. Rotors warp and wear. There is a lot more maintenance required of disc brakes than rim brakes. Got a leak in the hydraulics? Much more complicated and expensive to repair.

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by Alexbn921

I used to be a high-performance driving instructor and drive student cars. The main take away from all my students was wow, I can't believe how hard my car can brake. It was always hard to get them to use the full potential of the brakes and then get off of them so they could corner. Most people are soft on the brakes and then drag them into the corners way too far. You need to separate the events and maximize your grip for each individual maneuvers.

Practicing emergency breaking the one of the most important skills you can learn in any vehicle you are piloting! I always test my brakes when I get on the motorcycle just to baseline my brain with it's capability’s at the begging of a ride. No matter what you are driving or riding, knowing the operation limits could save your life or people around you.
Ride fast Take chances

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by usr

@Alexbn921 heh, I surely would qualify as an "extremely soft breaker" in your metrics (I just don't feel very much in control when a considerable fraction of my way too high body mass is resting at 1.x G on my spindly cyclist arms), but I totally get "baseline my brain with it's capability’s": I occasionally do that even for an individual corner, first some "calibration braking" of maybe 30% of the expected total deceleration with plenty of safety margin to the projected "ideal braking point" to get a feel for the interaction of fatigue, surface and slope, then the main deceleration where I feel it should be.

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