Virus And Riding.

Questions about bike hire abroad and everything light bike related. No off-topic chat please

Moderators: robbosmans, Moderator Team

Locked
Andrew69
Posts: 455
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:52 am
Location: ɹǝpunuʍop

by Andrew69

Mr.Gib wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:42 pm
You guys should read The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt. It explains through genetic evolution the behaviour of these people that concern you. A certain portion of the human population simply evolved with fear as a more dominant personality trait. It drives all sorts of behaviours from fear of regulation to fear of those that are different. It doesn't take much to see the source of much backwardness, racism, etc. It's a genetic characteristic that exists in us all, just for some of us it plays a greater role in motivating our behaviour. It is an outstandingly well written and important book.
Thanks for the recommendation. Will check it out

I wonder how much is nature vs nurture?
There is no doubt we are all are influenced to at least some degree by our families, peers and past experiences.
While some people are essentially "immune" to the influence of others, some people cant open their mouths without first checking with a parent or peer first

User avatar
synchronicity
Posts: 2072
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:41 pm
Location: Moruya, Australia
Contact:

by synchronicity

How does (or would) the book explain that conservative people (or let's say those that are labelled by others as "far right") seem to be less fearful of COVID-19?
vertebrae | Precision braking and shifting.
vayakora | Eco mouse mats: silk, linen, cotton, ramie, bamboo, etc.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



OnTheRivet
Posts: 470
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:41 pm

by OnTheRivet

Andrew69 wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:17 am
Mr.Gib wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:42 pm
You guys should read The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt. It explains through genetic evolution the behaviour of these people that concern you. A certain portion of the human population simply evolved with fear as a more dominant personality trait. It drives all sorts of behaviours from fear of regulation to fear of those that are different. It doesn't take much to see the source of much backwardness, racism, etc. It's a genetic characteristic that exists in us all, just for some of us it plays a greater role in motivating our behaviour. It is an outstandingly well written and important book.
Thanks for the recommendation. Will check it out

I wonder how much is nature vs nurture?
There is no doubt we are all are influenced to at least some degree by our families, peers and past experiences.
While some people are essentially "immune" to the influence of others, some people cant open their mouths without first checking with a parent or peer first
This is just wrong. Fear can manifest itself in more ways than the stuff you elluded to about conservatives. Liberal progressives fear more "real world" stuff than conservatives, 5 minutes on msm and you see how those hiding in their closets from a 99.9% surviveable virus are Left leaning.

Bigger Gear
Posts: 561
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:58 pm
Location: Wet coast, Canada

by Bigger Gear

OnTheRivet wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:49 am
Bigger Gear wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:29 pm
If I hear one more Canadian crying on social media about how we should just be like Texas, I'm going to have to delete all my apps. We cannot compare ourselves. We have saved lives, but it has had a cost. America will open up soon, but it has cost lives.
I'd preface by saying I'm not from Texas or live there, born and raised in SoCal. Texas dropped all covid mandates on March 2nd, the doomsayers predicted a bloodbath. So for the last 8 weeks Texans have been living like pre-covid and deaths from the virus are down significantly and projected to keep going down. The media doesn't tell you this because fear makes for great ratings and thats all they care about. Also Texas is ranked 23rd out of 55 states and territories for deaths per capita. The 4 worst are all blue states that heavily locked down. The information is out there you just have to wade through the msm and shitty media to get it.

Graph is from today April 16th 2021

Image
I did a poor job explaining the Canada vs Texas thing. The reason why we cannot compare Canada to Texas (or Florida or really any other American state) as the Canadian COVID-deniers love to do, is that in the March-December 2020 period (pre-vax), places like Texas and Florida had cases/million counts of over 100K, which in Canada we were under 30K/million. As a result, there is much more acquired partial immunity all across the USA than Canada. Then add in the vaccine rollout since December, where the USA has done exceptionally well. Currently the USA is at 27% fully (2 shots) vaccinated. Canada is at 2.6%. Canadian politicians will quote a much higher number, because many are now speaking like getting a single shot is "vaccinated". Because of supply issues here we have extended the 2nd shot intervals to 16 weeks for almost everyone. And to be honest, I wonder how many of those 16 week intervals are not going to be met.

Anyway, my point is the combination of case-induced partial immunity and full vaccination puts Texas, Florida and the entire USA way way ahead of anywhere in Canada in terms of a so-called "herd immunity". Canadians who point to areas going mask free and fully open in the USA and saying we can do the same.....sure, if we are willing to accept a much higher infection, complication and death rate than we've currently had. But the 2 situations cannot be compared.

Mr.Gib
Posts: 4561
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:12 pm
Location: eh?

by Mr.Gib

synchronicity wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:48 am
How does (or would) the book explain that conservative people (or let's say those that are labelled by others as "far right") seem to be less fearful of COVID-19?
It isnt so much less fear of COVID, but a greater fear of perceived lack of control and loss of liberty. It is a terrifying thing for many people to give over control of their personal health to state authorities. I don't think people who are compliant with health measures designed to arrest a pandemic are necessarily any more or less fearful of that pandemic than anyone else. They just see their actions of compliance as a practical solution to a problem. I would assume their fear is at the appropriate level to motivate logical action.

The "book" might explain why people who are afraid of vaccination or resist vaccination or other health measures (loss of control, liberty, etc.) are that way because of evolution in groups. Our genetic make up is not from survival of the fittest. It is from survival of the fittest group. If you perceive an outside group as taking your authority it will inspire fear of loss of control/liberty. Afterall an outside group is necessarily a competitor with mal intent and should be automatically feared and hated, or so it was as humans evolved eons ago, and so it still may be as our ancient genetics tell may tell us.

Read the book. You won't be dissappointed. It is extraordinay and not in anyway boring despite its highly intellectual subject matter.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

Andrew69
Posts: 455
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:52 am
Location: ɹǝpunuʍop

by Andrew69

OnTheRivet wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:03 pm
Andrew69 wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:17 am
Mr.Gib wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:42 pm
You guys should read The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt. It explains through genetic evolution the behaviour of these people that concern you. A certain portion of the human population simply evolved with fear as a more dominant personality trait. It drives all sorts of behaviours from fear of regulation to fear of those that are different. It doesn't take much to see the source of much backwardness, racism, etc. It's a genetic characteristic that exists in us all, just for some of us it plays a greater role in motivating our behaviour. It is an outstandingly well written and important book.
Thanks for the recommendation. Will check it out

I wonder how much is nature vs nurture?
There is no doubt we are all are influenced to at least some degree by our families, peers and past experiences.
While some people are essentially "immune" to the influence of others, some people cant open their mouths without first checking with a parent or peer first
This is just wrong. Fear can manifest itself in more ways than the stuff you elluded to about conservatives. Liberal progressives fear more "real world" stuff than conservatives, 5 minutes on msm and you see how those hiding in their closets from a 99.9% surviveable virus are Left leaning.
Im assuming you quoted the wrong post as neither I nor Mr Gibb mentioned anything about conservatives :noidea:

Mr.Gib
Posts: 4561
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:12 pm
Location: eh?

by Mr.Gib

Andrew69 wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:23 pm
OnTheRivet wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:03 pm
Andrew69 wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:17 am
Mr.Gib wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:42 pm
You guys should read The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt. It explains through genetic evolution the behaviour of these people that concern you. A certain portion of the human population simply evolved with fear as a more dominant personality trait. It drives all sorts of behaviours from fear of regulation to fear of those that are different. It doesn't take much to see the source of much backwardness, racism, etc. It's a genetic characteristic that exists in us all, just for some of us it plays a greater role in motivating our behaviour. It is an outstandingly well written and important book.
Thanks for the recommendation. Will check it out

I wonder how much is nature vs nurture?
There is no doubt we are all are influenced to at least some degree by our families, peers and past experiences.
While some people are essentially "immune" to the influence of others, some people cant open their mouths without first checking with a parent or peer first
This is just wrong. Fear can manifest itself in more ways than the stuff you elluded to about conservatives. Liberal progressives fear more "real world" stuff than conservatives, 5 minutes on msm and you see how those hiding in their closets from a 99.9% surviveable virus are Left leaning.
Im assuming you quoted the wrong post as neither I nor Mr Gibb mentioned anything about conservatives :noidea:
Yes that is interesting. But perhaps OnTheRivet has concluded correctly that conservatism is associated with what Jonathan Haidt describes as this genetic driven fear response. Conservatism is at its heart the desire to conserve past or existing states or principles. It is necessarily a fear of change. Lest anyone jump to the conclusion that this is somehow a negative, be advised that the motivation of conserve the past and the fear of change have been essential to human survival - we literally don't exist without it. What appears now as undesirable behaviour is only due to a misaligned present context. In other words the world we currently live in changes more rapidly than our ability to genetically evolve.

The quote below is fascinating:
OnTheRivet wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:03 pm
Liberal progressives fear more "real world" stuff than conservatives, 5 minutes on msm and you see how those hiding in their closets from a 99.9% surviveable virus are Left leaning.
Note the us and them distinction. One group is brave, the other fearful, weak. This is exactly how this genetic trait works. We are compelled to demonize those from other groups. In a prehistoric time it would lead to our groups greater reproductive success. In simple terms it would be easier for our group to kill the other group and take their stuff. The net result being that our genetics are more likely to make it to future generations because will are able to have and support more offspring with our greater and newly acquired resources. So if fear and hatred of the "other" group led to more offspring we expect that this trait will abound, and it does.

The interesting part is that the conclusion that one group is good (brave) and one is bad (fearful) requires no empirical support. There is no data that measures fearfulness. There are certainly differential responses to the situation (pandemic) among different groups, but one could just as easily conclude that the personal motivations to take protective measure were concern for others, desire to comply with state authorities, education, concern about hospitals being overwhelmed, etc. But as noted above we are the product of ancestors who were reproductively successful due to demonization of the "other". Attibuting action of the "other" to positive motivations just doesn't fit with our genetics.

There is a study that asked subjects to describe people from their own ethnic group and people from other ethnic groups. The responses were consistent with my description above. One's own group was described positively while other groups were described almost consistently negatively. It might be easy to argue that the subjects had negative expereinces with these ethnic groups or were simply parroting a lifetime of stereotypes about other ethnicities. However the study included a number of completely fictitious ethnic groups that inspired abundant and consistent negative impressions despite that fact that the subjects had of course never encountered them as they did not exist. It is human nature. Takes a lot of work and awarenss to overcome. Next up - Bruner's Model of Perception. That'll scare ya!
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

bikeboy1tr
Posts: 938
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:19 am
Location: Southern Ontario Canada

by bikeboy1tr

So I went to Kobo and searched out the book, The Righteous Mind and its now in my Wishlist and I will likely purchase soon and thanks for the recommendation Mr Gib. As I sit here and read through this forum I am also watching James Cordon Late Show who has guest Neil deGrasse Tyson. He wrote a book called Cosmic Queries but on the show he talks about how one of the problems with mankind conquering Covid is we cant seem to unite as one group who trusts what the scientists are telling us in order to combat Covid. The problem is we are divided as two groups and thats just not going to help us get through this with any efficiency at all.
It seems to me we have religion and politics that are interfering with science. As long as we have any two groups disagreeing on Covid its not going away anytime soon. Neil seems to think we are digressing back to caves as long as ppl dismiss scientists.
Man is his own worst enemy.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=154188
2018 Colnago V2R Rim Brake
2019 Colnago V2R Disc Brake
2014 Norco Threshold Disc Brake
2006 Ridley Crosswind Rim Brake

User avatar
synchronicity
Posts: 2072
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:41 pm
Location: Moruya, Australia
Contact:

by synchronicity

Mr.Gib wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:46 pm
synchronicity wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:48 am
How does (or would) the book explain that conservative people (or let's say those that are labelled by others as "far right") seem to be less fearful of COVID-19?
It isnt so much less fear of COVID, but a greater fear of perceived lack of control and loss of liberty. It is a terrifying thing for many people to give over control of their personal health to state authorities. I don't think people who are compliant with health measures designed to arrest a pandemic are necessarily any more or less fearful of that pandemic than anyone else. They just see their actions of compliance as a practical solution to a problem. I would assume their fear is at the appropriate level to motivate logical action.

The "book" might explain why people who are afraid of vaccination or resist vaccination or other health measures (loss of control, liberty, etc.) are that way because of evolution in groups. Our genetic make up is not from survival of the fittest. It is from survival of the fittest group. If you perceive an outside group as taking your authority it will inspire fear of loss of control/liberty. Afterall an outside group is necessarily a competitor with mal intent and should be automatically feared and hated, or so it was as humans evolved eons ago, and so it still may be as our ancient genetics tell may tell us.

Read the book. You won't be dissappointed. It is extraordinay and not in anyway boring despite its highly intellectual subject matter.
I can add it to my list of books to read, yes.

I think people tend to get more conservative with age. I used to be much more progressive. And now I am more conservative. Now I like to think of myself as lying somewhere in the middle of the political spectrum.

I can read through the lines and I can tell that you are politically progressive leaning. And there's nothing wrong with that. I can tell because you have already thrown the word "racism" around, mentioned "fear of regulation" (referring to guns & COVID perhaps without explicitly saying so?). But then after that you just did what you are accusing others of, when you said "the source of much backwardness". You are essentially saying that your 'side' (or your opinion) is less 'backward' than others. In other words, you are coming off as pertaining to a 'superior' group.

I think that the left is more fearful of the environment (and so they should be, because technology certainly has negative consequences)
and the right is more fearful of immigration (and more specifically, islamism). And so they should be, because it brings with it terrorism, case in point, the bomb that went off in Pakistan yesterday.
Both sides are not wrong.

My real point is though that both sides are fearful of something, not just one side.
vertebrae | Precision braking and shifting.
vayakora | Eco mouse mats: silk, linen, cotton, ramie, bamboo, etc.

Orbital
Posts: 358
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:52 am
Location: Pitt Meadows, BC

by Orbital

synchronicity wrote:right is more fearful of immigration (and more specifically, islamism). And so they should be, because it brings with it terrorism, case in point, the bomb that went off in Pakistan yesterday.

Hmmmm. Didn’t hear about that one, which has nothing to do with immigration in the slightest. But I do hear, on a weekly if not daily basis, of the white guy shooting up their school or workplace. Or the cop shooting first and asking questions later. So yeah, I’ll take my chances with immigrants.

Mr.Gib
Posts: 4561
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:12 pm
Location: eh?

by Mr.Gib

synchronicity wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:21 am
Mr.Gib wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:46 pm
synchronicity wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:48 am
How does (or would) the book explain that conservative people (or let's say those that are labelled by others as "far right") seem to be less fearful of COVID-19?
It isnt so much less fear of COVID, but a greater fear of perceived lack of control and loss of liberty. It is a terrifying thing for many people to give over control of their personal health to state authorities. I don't think people who are compliant with health measures designed to arrest a pandemic are necessarily any more or less fearful of that pandemic than anyone else. They just see their actions of compliance as a practical solution to a problem. I would assume their fear is at the appropriate level to motivate logical action.

The "book" might explain why people who are afraid of vaccination or resist vaccination or other health measures (loss of control, liberty, etc.) are that way because of evolution in groups. Our genetic make up is not from survival of the fittest. It is from survival of the fittest group. If you perceive an outside group as taking your authority it will inspire fear of loss of control/liberty. Afterall an outside group is necessarily a competitor with mal intent and should be automatically feared and hated, or so it was as humans evolved eons ago, and so it still may be as our ancient genetics tell may tell us.

Read the book. You won't be dissappointed. It is extraordinay and not in anyway boring despite its highly intellectual subject matter.
I can add it to my list of books to read, yes.

I think people tend to get more conservative with age. I used to be much more progressive. And now I am more conservative. Now I like to think of myself as lying somewhere in the middle of the political spectrum.

I can read through the lines and I can tell that you are politically progressive leaning. And there's nothing wrong with that. I can tell because you have already thrown the word "racism" around, mentioned "fear of regulation" (referring to guns & COVID perhaps without explicitly saying so?). But then after that you just did what you are accusing others of, when you said "the source of much backwardness". You are essentially saying that your 'side' (or your opinion) is less 'backward' than others. In other words, you are coming off as pertaining to a 'superior' group.

I think that the left is more fearful of the environment (and so they should be, because technology certainly has negative consequences)
and the right is more fearful of immigration (and more specifically, islamism). And so they should be, because it brings with it terrorism, case in point, the bomb that went off in Pakistan yesterday.
Both sides are not wrong.

My real point is though that both sides are fearful of something, not just one side.
A well made argument but it doesn't quite fit with Haidt's work which I used to explain seemingly illogical reactions to a pandemic. The fears you speak of are completely rational (regardless of whether they are well informed or not). The fear Haidt describes is an ingrained personality trait that is the product of human evolution, and not based on external stimulae in the same way as more rational fears. Right or wrong doesn't apply. I, or more properly Haidt, merely provide an explanation for why some people think the way they do. Judgements of right or wrong ought to be reserved for actual behaviour.

I assume your "progressive leanings" comment is directed at me. I teach in a business school and like many of my colleagues I am a hard core capitalist. I believe that competitive markets and the pre-eminance of the rights of the individual (over that of the state or other institutions) are best for society. The wrinkle I will add is that I am an ardent feminist. That my mentioned of racism and fear of regulation is an indicator of political leaning, while reasonable in some contexts, is in this context not the best deductive work. I apologize for being somewhat enigmatic. For me in the end, as an academic, there is only data. I have little use for value judgments based on anything else.
Last edited by Mr.Gib on Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

Mr.Gib
Posts: 4561
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:12 pm
Location: eh?

by Mr.Gib

Orbital wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:17 pm
synchronicity wrote:right is more fearful of immigration (and more specifically, islamism). And so they should be, because it brings with it terrorism, case in point, the bomb that went off in Pakistan yesterday.

Hmmmm. Didn’t hear about that one, which has nothing to do with immigration in the slightest. But I do hear, on a weekly if not daily basis, of the white guy shooting up their school or workplace. Or the cop shooting first and asking questions later. So yeah, I’ll take my chances with immigrants.
This is not super helpful. Try using data to make your point. If you want to argue that the fear of Islamic based terrorism is unfounded, perhaps consider providing a table showing casualities from different categories of terrorism. And remember that you are talking about the USA. The same argument might be more problematic in France. Might I suggest however that this thread is probably not the place for any of this.

And besides, you live in one of the most diverse, safe, a secure places in the world. Nice trails I hear.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

bikewithnoname
Posts: 1650
Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:29 pm
Location: Paris

by bikewithnoname

Interesting reading:

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/20 ... able-6.xls

https://www.adl.org/murder-and-extremism-2018

Absolutely nothing to do with cycling though.
"We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities." Oscar Wilde

User avatar
synchronicity
Posts: 2072
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:41 pm
Location: Moruya, Australia
Contact:

by synchronicity

synchronicity wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:52 am
But I don't think Australia is acting fast enough with vaccinations. Now they are even talking about still not having everyone here vaccinated by OCTOBER!
Why does it take until after OCTOBER to vaccinate everyone??!!! Ridiculous! :o
Fasst forward 3 months, and yes, it's now clearly apparent that Australia's vaccine rollout is one of the slowest of the OECD countries.

It's now almost August 2021 and only 13.6% of people have been fully inoculated.🤦‍♂️
vertebrae | Precision braking and shifting.
vayakora | Eco mouse mats: silk, linen, cotton, ramie, bamboo, etc.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



Mr.Gib
Posts: 4561
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:12 pm
Location: eh?

by Mr.Gib

synchronicity wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:41 am
synchronicity wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:52 am
But I don't think Australia is acting fast enough with vaccinations. Now they are even talking about still not having everyone here vaccinated by OCTOBER!
Why does it take until after OCTOBER to vaccinate everyone??!!! Ridiculous! :o
Fasst forward 3 months, and yes, it's now clearly apparent that Australia's vaccine rollout is one of the slowest of the OECD countries.

It's now almost August 2021 and only 13.6% of people have been fully inoculated.🤦‍♂️
Yup, that's a terrible number for an advanced country. I feel for ya. We're really rolling in Canada, 80% at least one shot and 60% fully vaccinated. In another few weeks Canada should be at 90% over 12 years old fully vaccinated. It's all good but that Delta variant will be a problem, the US border will open August 9th and they're not doing great. Just need to keep a lid on things till mid August - off to Italy. I'll be pissed if a bunch of anti-vax clowns blow this for me. :D
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

Locked