Please don’t make this a rim vs disc bloodfest. Stage 17 won with rim brake

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

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tomato
Posts: 443
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:37 pm

by tomato

rollinslow wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:33 pm
tomato wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:27 pm
rollinslow wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:41 pm
I took off all of my bike computers and stopped wasting my time with them. Too many Garmin failures or where it just took the pleasure of riding away. And I shaved a pound of weight off my bike.
A one pound bike computer? You should have just upgraded from vacuum tubes to transistors.
Just weighed the garmin 1030 unit and the k edge mount. It's half a pound.
I see, you're rounding up for dramatic effect.

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MikeD
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Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:55 pm

by MikeD

stevesbike wrote: 1. The roughly pound weight savings of a rim setup will allow for deeper profile/deeper section wheels, so the rim brake bike will always have an advantage over a disc brake bike of equal weight -see the thread aero vs weight with plots and aero rim brakes are all the fastest (plotting time on courses with varying climbing).
Are you sure it's not more than a pound? Don't forget the heavier frame and fork required for disc brakes.

I'm surprised hydraulic rim brakes didn't become a thing. SRAM makes one. Never seemed to be popular. Hydraulics are the main reason disc brakes are perceived to be better. Mechanical discs suck.

tomato
Posts: 443
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:37 pm

by tomato

MikeD wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:00 pm
stevesbike wrote: 1. The roughly pound weight savings of a rim setup will allow for deeper profile/deeper section wheels, so the rim brake bike will always have an advantage over a disc brake bike of equal weight -see the thread aero vs weight with plots and aero rim brakes are all the fastest (plotting time on courses with varying climbing).
Are you sure it's not more than a pound? Don't forget the heavier frame and fork required for disc brakes.
Many good disc-brake frames weigh the same as their rim-brake counterparts. The overall weight difference is about one-half pound for these bikes, when built up.

Tifosiphil
Posts: 150
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:09 pm

by Tifosiphil

MikeD wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:00 pm
stevesbike wrote: 1. The roughly pound weight savings of a rim setup will allow for deeper profile/deeper section wheels, so the rim brake bike will always have an advantage over a disc brake bike of equal weight -see the thread aero vs weight with plots and aero rim brakes are all the fastest (plotting time on courses with varying climbing).
Are you sure it's not more than a pound? Don't forget the heavier frame and fork required for disc brakes.

I'm surprised hydraulic rim brakes didn't become a thing. SRAM makes one. Never seemed to be popular. Hydraulics are the main reason disc brakes are perceived to be better. Mechanical discs suck.
Because they were a pain in the ass and didn't provide anything extra to a mechanical rim brake.

The two biggest pro's (for me) of disc brakes is no wear on the rim and consistent braking in the wet, hydraulic rim brakes didn't solve either of those issues

MikeD
Posts: 617
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:55 pm

by MikeD

tomato wrote:
MikeD wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:00 pm
stevesbike wrote: 1. The roughly pound weight savings of a rim setup will allow for deeper profile/deeper section wheels, so the rim brake bike will always have an advantage over a disc brake bike of equal weight -see the thread aero vs weight with plots and aero rim brakes are all the fastest (plotting time on courses with varying climbing).
Are you sure it's not more than a pound? Don't forget the heavier frame and fork required for disc brakes.
Many good disc-brake frames weigh the same as their rim-brake counterparts. The overall weight difference is about one-half pound for these bikes, when built up.
That I do not believe. Proof. But, even a half a pound is significant.
Last edited by MikeD on Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kar
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:33 am

by kar

smartyiak wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:05 pm
kar wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:24 am
We do not discuss one more important factor: the consumer. In the last decade, people are getting fatter and fatter in the developed world, particularly the urban population. Google it, all the data is available.
So they need to put brakes (Disc, of course) in eating and then they will appreciate rim brakes.

If rim brakes die in the next 5 years or so, it is not because they are not a good system. They are not good in all situations for heavy system weight. No wonder American bike companies are in the forefront of killing rim brakes.
I like it...my favorite explanation yet!

I prefer rim brakes and it has NOTHING to do with weight or aero. I live in Delaware, USA...there are no mountains here. Rim brakes have two cables and four pads...that's it. No fluid, no rubbing, easy adjustment. I keep seeing new bikes with hidden cables...they look fantastic...until I read: cables will have to be disconnected and cut...possibly brakes will have to be re-bled.

With rim brakes, even with hidden cables, the whole event would take 20min (cut housing, route cable, adjust)...I just don't want to deal with it. Don't want to deal with brake rub, warped discs, rebleeds. I deal with it on my MTB b/c there's a real improvement w/ discs on the trail. For where I live, there's no real improvement on the road. Rim brakes are simpler, easier, and work just fine...that's why I hope they don't get phased out (or I can keep finding NOS rim frames).
I think you don't have to worry about the parts or frame availability. They will be available for the forseeable future (I hope), at least the small companies and component makers will be offering them.

I also had mountainbike with hydro discs for long time. They are good for the purpose. Sold it last year and got an allroad/gravel bike with hydro disc and I am happy with it. But just recently I got a roadbike and went for rim brakes. I didnt find the need to have discs on it. Also for the reasons you mentioned+easy to carry in car as I dont like bike racks+weight.
I am not for a second worried about parts availability. Thought of hoarding extra wheelsets, but dropped the plan. Anyway, I need a new carbon wheelset.
Last edited by kar on Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Singular
Posts: 276
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:59 am

by Singular

MikeD wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:00 pm

I'm surprised hydraulic rim brakes didn't become a thing. SRAM makes one. Never seemed to be popular. Hydraulics are the main reason disc brakes are perceived to be better. Mechanical discs suck.
They add complication while, as mentioned, don't take away the potential downsides of rim brakes; transferring heat to and wearing on the rim, requiring a rim with a brake surface, inconsistent braking in the wet and limiting frame/fork design (and thereby tire/wheel clearance). With that said, I'm very intrigued by the only reasonable idea for an integrated aero rim brake bike (that actually works) - hydro rim brake and electronic shifting. With that said; there is nothing in the market, I am not really comissioning something for myself and would sure as hell not trust myself with cobbling something together with SRAM or Magura brakes on a set of levers that they're not supposed to fit...

But I really did like the idea of Tom Anhalt's Stinner "Aero Camino" bike.

usr
Posts: 239
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:58 pm

by usr

MikeD wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:00 pm
I'm surprised hydraulic rim brakes didn't become a thing. SRAM makes one. Never seemed to be popular.
Bad timing mostly (edit: and everything Singular wrote): they weren't new anymore when the all-internal routing thing eventually took off that is now forcing a quick conclusion upon disc vs rim and motor vs wire operated.

That, and the SRAM hydro calipers were just not very pretty. There could, in theory, be a post-disc niche in the form of a manufacturer serving rim holdouts with hydro rim so they don't need a separate lever line but that would only happen in some alternate reality universe.

G104xG320
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Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:32 pm

by G104xG320

rim brake yyds

stevesbike
Posts: 195
Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:33 pm

by stevesbike

tomato wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:05 pm
MikeD wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:00 pm
stevesbike wrote: 1. The roughly pound weight savings of a rim setup will allow for deeper profile/deeper section wheels, so the rim brake bike will always have an advantage over a disc brake bike of equal weight -see the thread aero vs weight with plots and aero rim brakes are all the fastest (plotting time on courses with varying climbing).
Are you sure it's not more than a pound? Don't forget the heavier frame and fork required for disc brakes.
Many good disc-brake frames weigh the same as their rim-brake counterparts. The overall weight difference is about one-half pound for these bikes, when built up.
My 58 2016 Scott Addict SL weighs under 6kg with 45mm clincher wheels (and pedals) - nothing tuned. I've used it for 2 Haute Route Alps etc. and it's everyday rideable. I think the only disc bike that comes even close is the Aethos S-Works though it's over 6kg with pedals. Reality is that most 'light' disc brake bikes are well over 7kg - if you've ever wondered why cyclingnews etc no longer mention the weights of the pro bikes they feature it's because they are no longer allowed to weigh them....

warthog101
Posts: 167
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:05 am

by warthog101

Tapatalk fail

warthog101
Posts: 167
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:05 am

by warthog101

MikeD wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:31 pm
tomato wrote:
MikeD wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:00 pm
stevesbike wrote: 1. The roughly pound weight savings of a rim setup will allow for deeper profile/deeper section wheels, so the rim brake bike will always have an advantage over a disc brake bike of equal weight -see the thread aero vs weight with plots and aero rim brakes are all the fastest (plotting time on courses with varying climbing).
Are you sure it's not more than a pound? Don't forget the heavier frame and fork required for disc brakes.
Many good disc-brake frames weigh the same as their rim-brake counterparts. The overall weight difference is about one-half pound for these bikes, when built up.
That I do not believe. Proof. But, even a half a pound is significant.
I realise this is the ww forum but unless you spend most of your time on steep climbs I do not regard 227 grams of weight as at all significant. A couple of mouthfulls of water :?
Aero is more important than weight imo and deep carbon wheels are expensive.
I don't particularly care about braking efficacy improvements.
I hate riding in the rain so avoid.
Happy to save my carbon wheels from brake wear but it aint even that much of an issue if you avoid rain and don't drag the brakes.
The next new bike will prob be disc for that reason, but in no particular hurry.

warthog101
Posts: 167
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:05 am

by warthog101

MikeD wrote:
warthog101 wrote:I'm tipping I'm never going to be on a big climb with a team car or a team mate to grab a wheel off. Image
I'll have to take my time and fix the puncture myself.
What sort of braking choice my bike has will matter not.
Yes but if you actually torqued that thruaxle to spec with a torque wrench in your garage, you might find that with the short Allen key on your multitool you can't generate enough torque to unscrew the thruaxle.
Sorry for not responding earlier.
No I aint going out anywhere on my bike if I can't fix a flat at the roadside.
I would be making damn sure any tool I carry is capable of removing the wheel or I am not going out.

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tommasini
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by tommasini

Hey guys - you're deviating back into the endless disc vs rim debate. How about we focus on the original intent. Why did top pro riders choose rim vs disc on critical races. Originally we focused on stages 17 and 18 of the tour. But now more recently the Mens Olympic RR saw them chosen by the 1st (ok std team set up) but also the 3rd and 6th finishers (they rode both rim and disc at the tour). Let's debate why did these riders choose rim?
Last edited by tommasini on Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

tomato
Posts: 443
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:37 pm

by tomato

tommasini wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:55 am
Hey guys - you're deviating back into the endless disc vs rim debate. How about we focus on the original intent. Why did top pro riders choose rim vs disc on critical races. Originally we focused on stages 17 and 18 of the tour. But now more recently the 1st (ok std team set up) but also the 3rd and 6th finishers (they rode both rim and disc at the tour). Let's debate why did these riders choose rim?
Because some cyclists prefer chocolate, while others prefer vanilla.

by Weenie


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