cellular health supplements for us older cylists - NMN, Niagen/NR, Mitopure/Urolithin A?

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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theStig
Posts: 379
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:22 am

by theStig

As an older cyclist with limited training time, I'm noticing worse and worse returns on the miles I put in and longer and longer recovery periods.

There's been a LOT of snake oil over the years, but it's getting harder to spot.

I'm a bit skeptical, but I figured I'd ask if anyone has tried any of these supplements? The literature makes some interesting claims.

nicotinamide riboside aka NR is supposed to elevate NAD+ production
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-03421-7
https://www.truniagen.com

Nicotinamide mononucleotide aka NMN is supposed to enhance aerobic capacity
https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/article ... 21-00442-4


Urolithin A, supposed to improve recovery and leg muscle strength (some have quoted double digit improvements)
https://www.nature.com/articles/s42255-019-0073-4

marketed as a product called "MitoPure" but YIKES it's expensive
https://www.timelinenutrition.com/science

AJS914
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by AJS914

I tried NMN and didn't notice any difference.

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iheartbianchi
Posts: 680
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:17 am

by iheartbianchi

theStig wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:14 pm
As an older cyclist with limited training time, I'm noticing worse and worse returns on the miles I put in and longer and longer recovery periods.

There's been a LOT of snake oil over the years, but it's getting harder to spot.

I'm a bit skeptical, but I figured I'd ask if anyone has tried any of these supplements? The literature makes some interesting claims.

nicotinamide riboside aka NR is supposed to elevate NAD+ production
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-03421-7
https://www.truniagen.com

Nicotinamide mononucleotide aka NMN is supposed to enhance aerobic capacity
https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/article ... 21-00442-4


Urolithin A, supposed to improve recovery and leg muscle strength (some have quoted double digit improvements)
https://www.nature.com/articles/s42255-019-0073-4

marketed as a product called "MitoPure" but YIKES it's expensive
https://www.timelinenutrition.com/science
If it's being sold for money, it is 99.9999% snake oil.

Sorry.

And how are they selling MitoPure when a clinical trial is ongoing? Irrespective of the legality or morality of this, aren't you a bit concerned that they are selling a product the efficacy of which is currently unknown and is actually being tested as we speak?

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04783207

I don't know your age, but if you're not doing weight training at least twice a week, I believe that will be your ticket to success.
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theStig
Posts: 379
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:22 am

by theStig

You know, I actually glanced at the study but failed to notice it was still recruiting (kind of embarassing because my work involves a lot of data from clinicaltrials.gov)

I do core/olympic lift work twice a week, and I'm starting to feel a bit worn out.

I find myself taking rest WEEKS nowadays instead of rest DAYS.
iheartbianchi wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:34 am


If it's being sold for money, it is 99.9999% snake oil.

Sorry.

And how are they selling MitoPure when a clinical trial is ongoing? Irrespective of the legality or morality of this, aren't you a bit concerned that they are selling a product the efficacy of which is currently unknown and is actually being tested as we speak?

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04783207

I don't know your age, but if you're not doing weight training at least twice a week, I believe that will be your ticket to success.

iheartbianchi
Posts: 680
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:17 am

by iheartbianchi

theStig wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:49 pm
You know, I actually glanced at the study but failed to notice it was still recruiting (kind of embarassing because my work involves a lot of data from clinicaltrials.gov)

I do core/olympic lift work twice a week, and I'm starting to feel a bit worn out.

I find myself taking rest WEEKS nowadays instead of rest DAYS.
Wow, there is something really wrong if you are taking rest weeks.

Needing to take 3-4 days to recover from a really hard day (as opposed to 1-2 days) is normal as you age, but if you're needing to take a week or more, I would be concerned about a more structural issue that is affecting you. Are you eating properly? No abnormal symptoms like low energy in general? Or are you just overtrained in general?

Also, I don't know what you mean by Olympic lift work, but I hope that does involve plenty of leg work.
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c60rider
Posts: 804
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:12 pm

by c60rider

iheartbianchi wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:52 am
theStig wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:49 pm
You know, I actually glanced at the study but failed to notice it was still recruiting (kind of embarassing because my work involves a lot of data from clinicaltrials.gov)

I do core/olympic lift work twice a week, and I'm starting to feel a bit worn out.

I find myself taking rest WEEKS nowadays instead of rest DAYS.
Wow, there is something really wrong if you are taking rest weeks.

Needing to take 3-4 days to recover from a really hard day (as opposed to 1-2 days) is normal as you age, but if you're needing to take a week or more, I would be concerned about a more structural issue that is affecting you. Are you eating properly? No abnormal symptoms like low energy in general? Or are you just overtrained in general?

Also, I don't know what you mean by Olympic lift work, but I hope that does involve plenty of leg work.
I agree with Bianchi here that a rest week is pretty abnormal if it's needed on a regular occurrence. If you are training to build/maintain fitness rather than just riding for fun or to potter around then for the older athlete a 2 week on/1 week off programme is what would be recommended (sub 40 yr olds might do a 3 week on/1 week off). Meaning 2 weeks of specific training eg that could be early season endurance type work based on sub zone 4 power, or a threshold type period, or a vo2 period that you're training. Then the 3rd week off doesn't mean doing nothing but having an extra day of total rest or a couple of rides where the focus is on zone 1/lower zone 2 for recovery ie to allow the body to adapt and hopefully improve slightly from the previous 2 weeks of concentrated work. At the end of that rest week you should be ready/hungry for some harder work over the upcoming 2 weeks. If not then something is wrong. Unless you're a full time athlete then this has to be managed around life, work and family commitments that can mean a specific session that was planned just might not be achievable on that day. Or you killed yourself 2 days earlier and you need that extra day of recovery so plan it for tomorrow. That's just being smart and listening to your body from one day to the next rather than going along following the plan regardless.

If you can't manage this then either your work/life balance doesn't allow it or maybe your training isn't progressive. Have you spent time working on a specific endurance block over 8-12 weeks to build a good foundation so that the more intense work can be tolerated and benefited from? If you're trying intense work (I'm meaning zone 4 plus) without a base then you can only cope with this for so long before you need a change. And a change of emphasis on the system your training is good anyway to help stop going stale or getting bored/mentally fatigued. Depending on what the olympic lift work means that can take away from bike performance if it's too aggressive on the legs. Again you would typically work mainly on progressive weights work in the off-season and just do a lighter, shorter, maintenance programme during summer months as that's when you want to get out on the bike.

Either way something isn't right and rather than typically pushing harder maybe decide what the issue is. Feeling worn out means fatigue! I would say drop the volume a bit and drop the intensity and finish rides comfortable so you could have done more. I remember a very well known ex-pro who became a world tour elite level coach who used to tell us kids when he trained with us that if you're doing an endurance ride eg 4 hours or whatever, if you couldn't ride for at least another hour or two more then you've gone too hard. Drop the weights session down to once a week, and again drop the weight and number of reps a little bit. Do this over a 4-6 week period and see if you're still worn out. Maybe get a blood test via your doctor make sure there's nothing underlying going on. Did you get covid? Have you got some subtle underlying long covid going on if it's coincided with that?

Yes as we age we do slowly see drop offs in performance and that has to be accepted but it shouldn't be that worn out feeling you're describing.

theStig
Posts: 379
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:22 am

by theStig

So, to clarify... rest week as an 1 week, not multiple weeks. So I follow my normal routine for 3 weeks, and then take it easy for a week.

Most of the lifting is for core - deadlifts, squats, clean/jerk.

I suppose there are a number of factors, and the heat wave we've been having isn't helping either.

weekly, usually get in a 4 hour ride in high zone 2/low zone 3, 1-2 hrs at threshold, and then maybe an hour of interval.

Yes time is limited, and I am BY NO MEANS an athlete. Just noticing more and more fatigue over the last couple of years, looking for a small edge wherever I can find it.

Maybe my bike is too heavy.
iheartbianchi wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:52 am

Wow, there is something really wrong if you are taking rest weeks.
c60rider wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:52 pm

Yes as we age we do slowly see drop offs in performance and that has to be accepted but it shouldn't be that worn out feeling you're describing.

AJS914
Posts: 4784
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

theStig wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:50 pm
weekly, usually get in a 4 hour ride in high zone 2/low zone 3, 1-2 hrs at threshold, and then maybe an hour of interval.
It sounds like most of your workouts (including weights) are middle or higher intensity. Have you ever done a block of pure low intensity base miles?

I was like you a few years ago. Every ride was leaving me tired and fitness wasn't improving. I did an 11 week block of polarized base training. By week 8, I was breaking every PR I had on Strava doing all this slow riding.

AJS914
Posts: 4784
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

Have you read this topic?

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=155915

c60rider
Posts: 804
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:12 pm

by c60rider

theStig wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:50 pm
So, to clarify... rest week as an 1 week, not multiple weeks. So I follow my normal routine for 3 weeks, and then take it easy for a week.

Most of the lifting is for core - deadlifts, squats, clean/jerk.

I suppose there are a number of factors, and the heat wave we've been having isn't helping either.

weekly, usually get in a 4 hour ride in high zone 2/low zone 3, 1-2 hrs at threshold, and then maybe an hour of interval.

Yes time is limited, and I am BY NO MEANS an athlete. Just noticing more and more fatigue over the last couple of years, looking for a small edge wherever I can find it.

Maybe my bike is too heavy.
I don't know how you're measuring the zones, whether it be by power, heart rate or good old RPE, but any of those are all relative to you. Your sessions tell me one thing and that's they're pretty brutal for the total time you have available. So you're typically training 3 days a week on the bike and a total of 6 or 7 hours. A 4 hour ride at geniune high zone 2/low zone 3 which is basically sweet spot is pretty intense. Certainly something that would likely take 2-3 days to feel fresh from and that's if it's something you've built up to over a few years. But off just 6-7 hours a week that's way too hard. Then there's 1-2 hrs at threshold???? Really?? Threshold is going flat out for 1 hour. The typical FTP test is attempting to establish that and it's an 8 minute (Carmichael) or the common 20 minute test for a reason, it's evil! And you need to prepare for it and be really fresh. And then your final session is an hour of intervals, so maybe zone 4-5?? What I'm seeing is a huge amount of intensity there with little in the way of recovery. To successfully complete interval sessions you need to be fresh, then it can take a couple of days recovery. But you're doing weights on your recovery days! And if that's a couple of days a week that's 5 days so I'm guessing the other 2 days are full on with life/work so not exactly recovery either.

Personally I would say the 3-4 hour session should be way down on intensity and probably mid to lower zone 2. Then the interval sessions should be a slightly easier one, maybe the next session following the endurance ride, and a harder one (eg the zone 4-5) when you feel freshest. The weights work probably after the interval sessions. So maybe Sunday endurance, Monday off, Tuesday easy interval, Wednesday some weights, Thursday off, Friday harder intervals, maybe weights Saturday. That's just an example but to be flexible depending on fatigue. But right now I would say drop it to one weight session so you can recover a bit and reduce the intensity of the rides. I'm sure others can chime in but it's obvious why you're tired most of the time if those zones are correct. :beerchug:

theStig
Posts: 379
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:22 am

by theStig

Sorry, my bad. I meant tempo not threshold. Basically a brisk group ride.

My zones are based on heart rate, I haven't figured out my FTP as of late so I haven't been using power for that.
c60rider wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:10 pm
theStig wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:50 pm
So, to clarify... rest week as an 1 week, not multiple weeks. So I follow my normal routine for 3 weeks, and then take it easy for a week.

Most of the lifting is for core - deadlifts, squats, clean/jerk.

I suppose there are a number of factors, and the heat wave we've been having isn't helping either.

weekly, usually get in a 4 hour ride in high zone 2/low zone 3, 1-2 hrs at threshold, and then maybe an hour of interval.

Yes time is limited, and I am BY NO MEANS an athlete. Just noticing more and more fatigue over the last couple of years, looking for a small edge wherever I can find it.

Maybe my bike is too heavy.
I don't know how you're measuring the zones, whether it be by power, heart rate or good old RPE, but any of those are all relative to you. Your sessions tell me one thing and that's they're pretty brutal for the total time you have available. So you're typically training 3 days a week on the bike and a total of 6 or 7 hours. A 4 hour ride at geniune high zone 2/low zone 3 which is basically sweet spot is pretty intense. Certainly something that would likely take 2-3 days to feel fresh from and that's if it's something you've built up to over a few years. But off just 6-7 hours a week that's way too hard. Then there's 1-2 hrs at threshold???? Really?? Threshold is going flat out for 1 hour. The typical FTP test is attempting to establish that and it's an 8 minute (Carmichael) or the common 20 minute test for a reason, it's evil! And you need to prepare for it and be really fresh. And then your final session is an hour of intervals, so maybe zone 4-5?? What I'm seeing is a huge amount of intensity there with little in the way of recovery. To successfully complete interval sessions you need to be fresh, then it can take a couple of days recovery. But you're doing weights on your recovery days! And if that's a couple of days a week that's 5 days so I'm guessing the other 2 days are full on with life/work so not exactly recovery either.

Personally I would say the 3-4 hour session should be way down on intensity and probably mid to lower zone 2. Then the interval sessions should be a slightly easier one, maybe the next session following the endurance ride, and a harder one (eg the zone 4-5) when you feel freshest. The weights work probably after the interval sessions. So maybe Sunday endurance, Monday off, Tuesday easy interval, Wednesday some weights, Thursday off, Friday harder intervals, maybe weights Saturday. That's just an example but to be flexible depending on fatigue. But right now I would say drop it to one weight session so you can recover a bit and reduce the intensity of the rides. I'm sure others can chime in but it's obvious why you're tired most of the time if those zones are correct. :beerchug:

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iheartbianchi
Posts: 680
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:17 am

by iheartbianchi

theStig wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:58 pm
Sorry, my bad. I meant tempo not threshold. Basically a brisk group ride.
A
young teenager at the peak of a racing season will be doing maybe 3 interval sessions a week, and 4 days of easy of riding. Some of those days will be doubles. And they'll only do this for a few weeks before tapering off on the intensity to peak for a race. And this is a teenager with peak ability to recover.

As we age, we can't really do 3 interval sessions a week without really paying for it. It goes down to 2 sessions. Then maybe 1 session a week. Which kind of stinks because its the intervals that give you that racing "edge." Intervals are really hard on you because they destroy your muscle fibers. But as you age, the two biggest things you lose (in terms of sports) is muscle, and Vo2Max. The two things that completely rely on youth, sadly. With lower muscle mass, you have less ability to do intervals, and it takes you longer to recover. Also, because you are working your (fewer) muscle mass even more, it takes even more time to recover, and you increase your risk of injury.

Reference on aging:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3928819/

Thankfully, there's a whole slew of ways to get better, beyond intervals. Intervals are terrific for muscle strength and muscle endurance, and also fantastic for your heart (VO2max). But again, you kind of lose this as you age, and trying to train as a teenager may mean you need to "recovery weeks" as you put it. So you have to find other ways to compensate.

The most common way for athletes in other sport to compensate is to increase their aerobic base and increase lactic threshold. By aerobic base I mean capillaries, mitochondira, type 1 slow twitch muscle fiber endurance (get more bang out of the muscle fibers you have). You do this with lots of slow miles. By lactic threshold, this requires specific training that focuses on your lactic threshold. This involves 5-15minute intervals at just below your lactic threshold. These shouldn't hurt until the last 2 or 3 minutes.

Keep in mind, your lactic threshold will also decrease as you age, but you can keep this relatively high, despite a decreasing Vo2Max. This is critical. Vo2Max is a pretty funny number that people obsess over. The real important number is your lactic threshold (or MLSS). Typically this is a percentage of your MaxHR (or Vo2Max). But you can break the link by fighting to keep your lactic threshold relatively higher than the relative decline in your Vo2Max.

Depending on how strong of a rider you used to be, these two alternatives may never get you back to your peak as you age. But if you were pretty mediocore to start off with, whatever gains you loss as a result of lack of ability to intervals, can be outmatched and exceeded by your gains in aerobic capacity and lactic threshold.
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FSA / Deda bits and parts

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