Rumors Next Generation Campagnolo Road?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

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FlatlandClimber
Posts: 2242
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:37 pm

by FlatlandClimber

Why would anyone *not want* 13 gears, or even 14? If they get it to work as well as 11 or 12 speed, and make it not that much heavier, what's not to love about another gear?
It would allow for cassettes like:
11-12-13-14-15-16-18-20-22-25-28-32-36
11-12-13-14-15-16-17-19-21-24-27-30-34
Specialized SW Æthos (2021) 6.1kg
Specialized SW Crux (2022) 7.2kg
Specialized SW Tarmac (2022) 7.1kg
Cervelo P5 Disc (2021) 9.1kg

*all weights are race ready bikes, large frame size.
Sold: Venge, S5 Disc, Roubaix Team, Open WI.DE, Émonda, Shiv TT Disc

usr
Posts: 560
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:58 pm

by usr

Dorpel wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:24 pm
I hope 12speed Chorus EPS comes one day.
Most Campag buyers seem to be into the heritage thing of mechanical. I suspect that they consider EPS as mostly failed in the market and only continue because pro team relations would suffer. Remember that they didn't even offer the Record level for 12S EPS.

The problem with this is that new frames set up for mechanical cables will soon be as rare as frames with bosses for downtube shifters, this transition is already happening.

My guess is that they'll go wireless first (chances are frames will eventually even lack openings for electric cables..), then extend the electronic range downwards.

In an ideal world they'd cooperate with a certain little scoreboard manufacturer 70 km from Vicenza for wireless, apparently they have a team there that's quite good at programming the nrf52832 (the chip that is driving literally every piece of wireless bike area network data transmission you can buy, no matter which protocol)
FlatlandClimber wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:20 am
Why would anyone *not want* 13 gears, or even 14?
At some point I'd want ultra-ultrashift offering more than 5/3 ;)

by Weenie


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upacs
Posts: 70
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:50 am
Location: Switzerland

by upacs

Lina wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:05 am
Will people stop repeating this. SRAM doesn't have a patent on wireless shifting. Nothing they have patented prevents one of the big three from implementing wireless shifting. Not even fully wireless with batteries in derailleurs.
I've read numerous times that SRAM has a patent on putting the batteries on the derailleurs themselves. This to me sounds rather weird, because how on earth can one patent putting a battery on something? Even if true, I suspect it wouldn't get far in a court case once challenged.

Otherwise I believe you are right. Shimano has in the past made it clear they are not interested in wireless. Rumour has it they will do wireless in some form with the new Di2, but probably only because the market wants it, rather than them believing it's a real improvement. As for Campag... well... they don't seem to care much for EPS tbh. The price has always been silly compared to the others, which means Campagnolo EPS groupsets are rare as hen's teeth. I can count with the fingers in one hand the samples I've seen out in the wild, whereas Di2 and eTap is everywhere.

RDY
Posts: 1243
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:31 pm

by RDY

As stated many, many times, the patents that Shimano,SRAM and Campag register, for the most part, are to keep copycat / clone new entrants from entering the market, not to restrict each other. They're very happy with the oligopoly, and won't fight each other.

But with the advent of wireless and electronic shifting, FSA slowly entering the market, massive demand, and huge price inflation, others inevitably will be drawn to the gruppo market. Rotor, Ingrid and Box are all niche players, but there will be others, and I'd be surprised if Rotor and Box's next major refresh or generation isn't electronic.

Ritxis
Posts: 925
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:00 pm
Location: San Sebastian

by Ritxis

RDY wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:03 pm
As stated many, many times, the patents that Shimano,SRAM and Campag register, for the most part, are to keep copycat / clone new entrants from entering the market, not to restrict each other. They're very happy with the oligopoly, and won't fight each other.

But with the advent of wireless and electronic shifting, FSA slowly entering the market, massive demand, and huge price inflation, others inevitably will be drawn to the gruppo market. Rotor, Ingrid and Box are all niche players, but there will be others, and I'd be surprised if Rotor and Box's next major refresh or generation isn't electronic.

How many years has the FSA WE been ready? do you see anything on professional teams? Burgos-BH has used it but not all riders used it at the same time as Di2, currently they barely use it .... I doubt they do, at least I haven't seen it in 2021 photos

aeroisnteverything
Posts: 688
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:43 pm

by aeroisnteverything

FlatlandClimber wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:20 am
Why would anyone *not want* 13 gears, or even 14? If they get it to work as well as 11 or 12 speed, and make it not that much heavier, what's not to love about another gear?
It would allow for cassettes like:
11-12-13-14-15-16-18-20-22-25-28-32-36
11-12-13-14-15-16-17-19-21-24-27-30-34
A 13-speed like that is pretty well set for a 1x drivetrain. At 14-speed, it'd be stupid NOT to go 1x.

And I am definitely there for it, but first I sort of want someone to put some thought into solving chainline issues and the associated efficiency losses.

On the weight front, as AXS shows, there is unfortunately no free lunch. These groupsets will be heavier.

RDY
Posts: 1243
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:31 pm

by RDY

Ritxis wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:28 pm
RDY wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:03 pm
As stated many, many times, the patents that Shimano,SRAM and Campag register, for the most part, are to keep copycat / clone new entrants from entering the market, not to restrict each other. They're very happy with the oligopoly, and won't fight each other.

But with the advent of wireless and electronic shifting, FSA slowly entering the market, massive demand, and huge price inflation, others inevitably will be drawn to the gruppo market. Rotor, Ingrid and Box are all niche players, but there will be others, and I'd be surprised if Rotor and Box's next major refresh or generation isn't electronic.

How many years has the FSA WE been ready? do you see anything on professional teams? Burgos-BH has used it but not all riders used it at the same time as Di2, currently they barely use it .... I doubt they do, at least I haven't seen it in 2021 photos
Who cares about pro teams?

FSA are definitely getting cash from large bike brands to further develop their products ... if they can't get enough gruppos from the others, then they look for a solution.

FlatlandClimber
Posts: 2242
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:37 pm

by FlatlandClimber

aeroisnteverything wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:50 pm
FlatlandClimber wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:20 am
Why would anyone *not want* 13 gears, or even 14? If they get it to work as well as 11 or 12 speed, and make it not that much heavier, what's not to love about another gear?
It would allow for cassettes like:
11-12-13-14-15-16-18-20-22-25-28-32-36
11-12-13-14-15-16-17-19-21-24-27-30-34
A 13-speed like that is pretty well set for a 1x drivetrain. At 14-speed, it'd be stupid NOT to go 1x.

And I am definitely there for it, but first I sort of want someone to put some thought into solving chainline issues and the associated efficiency losses.

On the weight front, as AXS shows, there is unfortunately no free lunch. These groupsets will be heavier.
I don't think that any of it would be stupid and 1x is just very limited for road. 2x allows an efficient high end and a low enough low end, I think that makes perfect sense with 12 gears and I don't see how one or two more gears would change that.
Specialized SW Æthos (2021) 6.1kg
Specialized SW Crux (2022) 7.2kg
Specialized SW Tarmac (2022) 7.1kg
Cervelo P5 Disc (2021) 9.1kg

*all weights are race ready bikes, large frame size.
Sold: Venge, S5 Disc, Roubaix Team, Open WI.DE, Émonda, Shiv TT Disc

Ritxis
Posts: 925
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:00 pm
Location: San Sebastian

by Ritxis

RDY wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:04 pm
Ritxis wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:28 pm
RDY wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:03 pm
As stated many, many times, the patents that Shimano,SRAM and Campag register, for the most part, are to keep copycat / clone new entrants from entering the market, not to restrict each other. They're very happy with the oligopoly, and won't fight each other.

But with the advent of wireless and electronic shifting, FSA slowly entering the market, massive demand, and huge price inflation, others inevitably will be drawn to the gruppo market. Rotor, Ingrid and Box are all niche players, but there will be others, and I'd be surprised if Rotor and Box's next major refresh or generation isn't electronic.

How many years has the FSA WE been ready? do you see anything on professional teams? Burgos-BH has used it but not all riders used it at the same time as Di2, currently they barely use it .... I doubt they do, at least I haven't seen it in 2021 photos
Who cares about pro teams?

FSA are definitely getting cash from large bike brands to further develop their products ... if they can't get enough gruppos from the others, then they look for a solution.
Who cares about pro teams'???

to own brands, right? They are the "showcase" in which many future buyers look ..............

How many users and / or inquiries about the FSA WE do you know? It is a group that I do not think will finish taking off in sales ... more with the Rival AXS and the Shimano 12 speed close to hitting the market

AJS914
Posts: 4969
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

I just switched to 52/36 and an 11-32 on 11 speed. I needed the 52x11 because 50x12 wasn't cutting it and I needed the 32. I was also getting tired of compact - I never loved riding around in a 50 almost all the time.

Anyway, I love this combination and I don't really miss the 16 toothed cog as much as I thought. I'd see 12 speed (with the 16) or 13 speed with more gears (11-34?) as a bonus.

upacs
Posts: 70
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:50 am
Location: Switzerland

by upacs

aeroisnteverything wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:50 pm
A 13-speed like that is pretty well set for a 1x drivetrain. At 14-speed, it'd be stupid NOT to go 1x.
That's a pretty arrogant statement. Just because 1x14 would work fine for you, it doesn't mean it works fine for everyone.

I could happily ride a 1x14 (assuming no chainline issues), but I'd be even happier with a 2x13. And dear friend, I may not be the smartest cookie in the jar, but I'm most certainly not stupid.

RDY
Posts: 1243
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:31 pm

by RDY

Ritxis wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:50 pm
RDY wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:04 pm
Ritxis wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:28 pm
RDY wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:03 pm
As stated many, many times, the patents that Shimano,SRAM and Campag register, for the most part, are to keep copycat / clone new entrants from entering the market, not to restrict each other. They're very happy with the oligopoly, and won't fight each other.

But with the advent of wireless and electronic shifting, FSA slowly entering the market, massive demand, and huge price inflation, others inevitably will be drawn to the gruppo market. Rotor, Ingrid and Box are all niche players, but there will be others, and I'd be surprised if Rotor and Box's next major refresh or generation isn't electronic.

How many years has the FSA WE been ready? do you see anything on professional teams? Burgos-BH has used it but not all riders used it at the same time as Di2, currently they barely use it .... I doubt they do, at least I haven't seen it in 2021 photos
Who cares about pro teams?

FSA are definitely getting cash from large bike brands to further develop their products ... if they can't get enough gruppos from the others, then they look for a solution.
Who cares about pro teams'???

to own brands, right? They are the "showcase" in which many future buyers look ..............

How many users and / or inquiries about the FSA WE do you know? It is a group that I do not think will finish taking off in sales ... more with the Rival AXS and the Shimano 12 speed close to hitting the market
It just doesn't matter. At all. People will buy what's available. I can guarantee you that some of the large brands will have complete bikes with FSA groupsets on them in calendar year 2022. And they will sell just as fast as Shimano or SRAM equipped ones do - that is, instantly in most cases.

The purpose of marketing departments at the moment is to mainly carry on as normal in order to try to justify their own existences. In the current market boom, which will last a long time most likely, they're almost completely redundant. Press releases are pretty much all that's needed.

OnTheRivet
Posts: 610
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:41 pm

by OnTheRivet

upacs wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:53 pm
aeroisnteverything wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:50 pm
A 13-speed like that is pretty well set for a 1x drivetrain. At 14-speed, it'd be stupid NOT to go 1x.
That's a pretty arrogant statement. Just because 1x14 would work fine for you, it doesn't mean it works fine for everyone.

I could happily ride a 1x14 (assuming no chainline issues), but I'd be even happier with a 2x13. And dear friend, I may not be the smartest cookie in the jar, but I'm most certainly not stupid.
1x14 would have EVERY gear you would have running 2x12 without the overlap. I suspect some work can be done to chains to minimize chain angle efficiency. I'd be ALL over 1x14 for the road.

Hexsense
Posts: 2807
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am
Location: Louisiana, USA

by Hexsense

OnTheRivet wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:09 pm
upacs wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:53 pm
aeroisnteverything wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:50 pm
A 13-speed like that is pretty well set for a 1x drivetrain. At 14-speed, it'd be stupid NOT to go 1x.
That's a pretty arrogant statement. Just because 1x14 would work fine for you, it doesn't mean it works fine for everyone.

I could happily ride a 1x14 (assuming no chainline issues), but I'd be even happier with a 2x13. And dear friend, I may not be the smartest cookie in the jar, but I'm most certainly not stupid.
1x14 would have EVERY gear you would have running 2x12 without the overlap.
true for 53/39 or Sram's narrow range front rings (50/37, 48/35, 46/33).

You need more for bigger range of 52/36 and 50/34.

Then even more for 46/30 or 44/28 (which I'm using on my gravel bike).
44/28 is 57% increase in gear ratio. The 44/28 with 11/30 have to be replaced with 44 front ring and 11-47
Or 40 front ring with 10-42.
In my head, I'd need 16 cogs in the back to smooth the jump of 44 front and 11-47t vs 44/28 with 11-30.

Also, on the imaginary 11-47 cassette, there is a cluster of 30-33-37-42-47 that each of them are all larger than the 28t small ring it replace.

Edit: Here, I even plot it out. Gear-calculator.com don't allow me to plot 16 cog cassette. So I draw 12-13-14 in paint.
Attachments
gear.png
Last edited by Hexsense on Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

barbaar
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:40 am
Location: NL

by barbaar

usr wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:53 am
Most Campag buyers seem to be into the heritage thing of mechanical. I suspect that they consider EPS as mostly failed in the market and only continue because pro team relations would suffer. Remember that they didn't even offer the Record level for 12S EPS.
As a long time (25+ years) Campy rider, I do not recognize this and have never heard such thing.

I have (of course) spend many hours on mechanical campy group sets and shifting is awesome (10 speed was the best btw).

2 years ago I bought my first EPS groupset, 11 speed Record. And I absolutely love it. Shifting is so smooth, fast and reliable.

Right now I am waiting for my new Ostro and never had any doubt on what to choose. 12 speed EPS again.

The only downside on EPS is the huge price tag it comes with. I think you must be very sure you love to ride bikes before wanting to invest so much money on a group set. Knowing that competition offers roughly the same functionality for much less (not discussing durability or quality here!) money.

EPS is an awesome product that in no way failed. Either it's the Campy pricing strategy that fails or they choose to position themselves in the upper market and go for exclusivity.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

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