Hookless tires

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

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pmprego
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Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

Nickldn wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:54 pm
Summary of this thread to date:

OP and a couple of other notable protegonists: hookless rims and tyres are all great as long as you keep to 73psi, we love the magical thinking from hookless rim manufacturers. We feel very safe.

Several other WW posters: here OP and others is a body of evidence from hookless rim manufacturers and other trusted publications, which says hookless still has a long way to go and anyway if good hookless tyres are made they are likely to be heavy enough to negate the reduction in weight provided by hookless rims. Please only use approved rims/tyres.

OP and a couple of other notable protegonists: no we like magical thinking and accuse you all of being ludites for not appreciating the might of hookless rims. It's the future you know and we'll test it out for you to prove our superior grasp of physics and faith in the great hookless rim manufacturers.
Actually, the op asked for tires recommendation and you and some others completely highjacked the thread to rant on hookless. What a nice service you did.

by Weenie


gSporco
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by gSporco

Hapsmo911 wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:44 pm
So I am getting a set of Zipp 303's soon. I am shopping for road tires. I wanted to try Michelin Power Road TLR's. They are listed for ENVE AR's as approved, but they do not show as approved by Zipp. I emailed Michelin, no response yet. Seems logical they would be ok for the Zipps? Am I missing something? Anyother recommendations are welcome to.
So as we are waiting on the same set of wheels, I also posted a thread asking the very same question. In wouldnt have if I had seen yours first.

That being said, since no ine on WW is interested in actually commenting on the question at hand, but rather discuss the merits of hooked bs hookless, here is what I have come up with so far.

Schwalbe Pro One TLE have been verified by Enve, Zipp and Giant/ Cadex

Enve SES tires are obviously safe as well

Maxxis Highroad TLR passes the test

Pirelli Pzero Velo Race TLR seems to be good based kn Zipps recommendations

And finally Zipp tangent are safe

There are others, but I am leaning towards the Pro One TLE as Giant seemed to have more stringent testing with these and the others on their list.

Nickldn
Posts: 746
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

pmprego wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:29 am
Nickldn wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:54 pm
Summary of this thread to date:

OP and a couple of other notable protegonists: hookless rims and tyres are all great as long as you keep to 73psi, we love the magical thinking from hookless rim manufacturers. We feel very safe.

Several other WW posters: here OP and others is a body of evidence from hookless rim manufacturers and other trusted publications, which says hookless still has a long way to go and anyway if good hookless tyres are made they are likely to be heavy enough to negate the reduction in weight provided by hookless rims. Please only use approved rims/tyres.

OP and a couple of other notable protegonists: no we like magical thinking and accuse you all of being ludites for not appreciating the might of hookless rims. It's the future you know and we'll test it out for you to prove our superior grasp of physics and faith in the great hookless rim manufacturers.
Actually, the op asked for tires recommendation and you and some others completely highjacked the thread to rant on hookless. What a nice service you did.
I would say it was a response to some others reassuring OP he could use whatever tyres he wants up to 73 psi, including Michelin Power Road TLR's, on his new Zipp 303's even though they are not on the Zipp approved list. I hope this discussion has allowed OP to make up his own mind. Sorry if you are not comfortable with strong views (mostly directly from hookless tyre manufacturers), which were expressed.
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Zero7
Posts: 52
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:38 pm

by Zero7

gSporco wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:34 am
Hapsmo911 wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:44 pm
So I am getting a set of Zipp 303's soon. I am shopping for road tires. I wanted to try Michelin Power Road TLR's. They are listed for ENVE AR's as approved, but they do not show as approved by Zipp. I emailed Michelin, no response yet. Seems logical they would be ok for the Zipps? Am I missing something? Anyother recommendations are welcome to.
So as we are waiting on the same set of wheels, I also posted a thread asking the very same question. In wouldnt have if I had seen yours first.

That being said, since no ine on WW is interested in actually commenting on the question at hand, but rather discuss the merits of hooked bs hookless, here is what I have come up with so far.

Schwalbe Pro One TLE have been verified by Enve, Zipp and Giant/ Cadex

Enve SES tires are obviously safe as well

Maxxis Highroad TLR passes the test

Pirelli Pzero Velo Race TLR seems to be good based kn Zipps recommendations

And finally Zipp tangent are safe

There are others, but I am leaning towards the Pro One TLE as Giant seemed to have more stringent testing with these and the others on their list.
I picked up a pair of the Maxxis High Road TR for my Giant SLR 1 Aero Disc Wheels. 170 tpi and $59 each. I heard these tires are not super hard to mount and also the Maxxis High Road clinchers get good reviews.
I'm just waiting for the Giant Gavia Race 1 tires to wear out. I'm pretty impressed with these Giant Gavia Race 1 tires. Unfortunately they have been out of stock for a while now.

tjvirden
Posts: 211
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:21 pm

by tjvirden

warthog101 wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:06 am

The entire high pressure test text makes more sense;
HIGH PRESSURE TOLERANCE TEST
First, the tire is inflated to 72.5 psi (5 bar), an average
minimum pressure for most riders on 25c tires,
and must withstand this pressure for 24 hours
without blowing off. Next, the tire is inflated to its
recommended maximum pressure and must withstand
this pressure for 24 hours without blowing off. After
that, the tire is inflated to 1.2 times the recommended
maximum pressure and must withstand this pressure
for 24 hours without blowing off. Finally, the tire is
inflated to 1.5 times the recommended maximum
pressure and must withstand this pressure for 24 hours
without blowing off. The final number of 1.5 times
the recommended maximum pressure is intended
to simulate such extreme conditions as hitting a
square edge or a pothole at high speed causing the
tire pressure to increase suddenly. If the tire has been
able to withstand the four pressures for 24 hours
respectively without blowing off, it passes the Giant
high pressure tolerance test.


They test the tyres and list them if compatible if they pass.
Call it what you like by quoting an isolated passage of the test protocol, but it is not as if they are marketing untested equipment.
Zipp and Enve are also making hookless rims.
Giant are not alone.
Continue with box section aluminim rims and glue on singles if it makes you happy.
I have some hooked tubeless rims but will be happy to run hookless when I eventually grab a new bike.
I should have been a little clearer - the problem that I see is that they are marketing largely irrelevant tests, and making things up to them support them.

To be specific, when (bicycle) tires are subject to large impact such as "hitting a square edge or a pothole at high speed", there's only a small change in pressure - up to around 5% - its the whole reason for the success of the pneumatic tyre! And the bit about "excessive friction" leading to tire blow-off is pure fantasy. Giant are better than this; I'm sure they have some engineers who understand these basic aspects of bicycle 'technology', but this bit of marketing (I sincerely hope that's all it is) certainly wasn't checked by them.
In terms of irrelevant testing, Giant are not at all unique - certainly Mavic have been guilty of some (also tire pressure tests), we know Enve have a record and Canyon's recent Aeroad mis-step is an obvious example. Steerer failures (in normal use, from poor design/manufacturing), from almost all major brands, that have lead to recalls are one of the worst examples. All these products were "tested" before being sold. And then recalled. Testing is only any good if the test is relevant to actual use in the field.

Much to many people's suprise, hookless rims are ancient design (and I'm meaning clinchers not tubs of course) and there really are some benefits to hookless rims for bicycles - however, there are disadvantages too; so it's a trade-off for each particular application. Pressure is the biggest single factor - if you don't need 'high pressure', AND you would like to use tubeless, then hookless, done well, will be great. In other situations it's not as clear. The big problem is compatibility between rims & tires from different brands - for either hookless rims, or tubeless tires, or both together, the tolerances have to be tiny and the bead specifications (primarily tensile stiffness and creep; extension over time that is) are critical. There still isn't an accepted standard that covers all of this, so problems will continue. It's a hugely more difficult proposition than for automobile, because of the unique requirements of the bicycle.

If it makes you happy, I don't glue on tires and I do allow carbon onto my rims.........

Hapsmo911
Posts: 211
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:54 am

by Hapsmo911

Thanks for all the reaponses. I ordered the Michelin tires. They came in and so did the wheels. I am going to run some gravelkings on them for a bit on my Aspero before I put the road tires on. The Zipps are amazing, cant say enough about Ryan the owner of Speed Vision who built the wheels. Super prices and quality build. 1315g for the set with tape and valves. Ill report back on the tires in a few weeks. :)

gSporco
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Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:58 am

by gSporco

Hapsmo911 wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:16 am
Thanks for all the reaponses. I ordered the Michelin tires. They came in and so did the wheels. I am going to run some gravelkings on them for a bit on my Aspero before I put the road tires on. The Zipps are amazing, cant say enough about Ryan the owner of Speed Vision who built the wheels. Super prices and quality build. 1315g for the set with tape and valves. Ill report back on the tires in a few weeks. :)
Thats awesome man!! I cant wait for mine. Still waiting on the DT Swiss shipment

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synchronicity
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by synchronicity

pmprego wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:21 pm
synchronicity wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:08 pm
What?!
Another standard? :shock:
I hadn't even heard about these until now.
Oh I'm not surprised that zipp is on board, they can't get enough of planned obsolescence! :roll:

I'll stick with my clinchers thanks. :lol:
I just wonder if you are being forced on to changing your wheels? If you are I feel sorry, really. If you are not them comment if you have value to add to the discussion.
I did not ask for your "pity". :wink:
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AnkitS
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by AnkitS

- Part deleted by mod -

I agree that Schwalbe Pro One TLEs are probably your best bet for road tires with hookless rims. I've had ENVE 3.4ARs and have compared notes with a couple others about what tires we are liking. Pretty much a toss up between Pro One TLEs and Specialized Rapid Airs.

Keep in mind that a 28mm tire is technically out of ERTO spec with a 25mm internal rim. Even if it's ideal aero-wise rims like the 303FC, ENVE ARs, etc. This hasn't really been an issue for me other than Goodyear Eagle Supersports where the tire lifted off of the rim bead uneavenly in some spots, this was noticed by other users as well. See here.

I'm still torn whether or not I am aboard the hookless train or not. There's no noticable ride difference at all and the aero claims are somewhat dubious, somewhat splitting hairs. The wheels that I wanted came in hookless so that's what I went with. The replacements will not be, just because I don't want to be limited in tire choice. I don't really get any of the advantages of hookless on road other than a more simplified production process which isn't represented in price anyways.
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warthog101
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by warthog101


gSporco
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by gSporco

AnkitS wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:16 am

I agree that Schwalbe Pro One TLEs are probably your best bet for road tires with hookless rims. I've had ENVE 3.4ARs and have compared notes with a couple others about what tires we are liking. Pretty much a toss up between Pro One TLEs and Specialized Rapid Airs.

Keep in mind that a 28mm tire is technically out of ERTO spec with a 25mm internal rim. Even if it's ideal aero-wise rims like the 303FC, ENVE ARs, etc. This hasn't really been an issue for me other than Goodyear Eagle Supersports where the tire lifted off of the rim bead uneavenly in some spots, this was noticed by other users as well. See here.

I'm still torn whether or not I am aboard the hookless train or not. There's no noticable ride difference at all and the aero claims are somewhat dubious, somewhat splitting hairs. The wheels that I wanted came in hookless so that's what I went with. The replacements will not be, just because I don't want to be limited in tire choice. I don't really get any of the advantages of hookless on road other than a more simplified production process which isn't represented in price anyways.
Good point about the 28s fitting the aero profile of 25mm internal rims. What do you think about the 27mm Enve SeS tires? Do you think they would lined up with the external rim or maybe slightly narrower?

gSporco
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by gSporco

warthog101 wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:29 am
https://www.slowtwitch.com/Products/Thi ... _7692.html

A few on today's ride with hookless rims.
These seem pretty popular;
https://road.cc/content/review/270295-m ... ess-170tpi
Yes, Ive read good things about the HoghRoads on hookless; unfortunately for me, I am chasing grams and the HighRoads are a bit heavy for what I am after..

AnkitS
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by AnkitS

I'm not going to buy a pair of Tofu tires, ever. Therefore I don't know how the 27mm enves mate up with my wheels. I'm not sure what you are asking but there are probably a couple thousand posts and on slowtwitch on here talking about the 105% rule and rim/tire aerodynamics.

Internal width has nothing to do with aero profile, 25mm internal rims vary from 30mm external to 32mm external. It's all about the measured tire width matching up with the edge of the rim.
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pmprego
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by pmprego

AnkitS wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:16 am

Keep in mind that a 28mm tire is technically out of ERTO spec with a 25mm internal rim. Even if it's ideal aero-wise rims like the 303FC, ENVE ARs, etc.
Why is that? What do they recommend? Thanks

by Weenie


AnkitS
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by AnkitS

I am certain you can use a search engine broski. It would have taken less time than quoting and replying to me.
If you click the link in my original post there is an explanation from JuniorVarsity a couple posts down along with a complete explanation.

Here's what they reccomend:
Image
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