Wheels for climbing

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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fortrog
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:45 am

by fortrog

Paddypurplepuss wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:17 pm
Ah thats brillaint man. Keep me posted on the progresss. Have you got to test them descending in the rain yet?
Hopefully won't have to do too much of this, as I live in Los Angeles and it rarely rains here. Braking in the dry feels just as solid as the Zipps, if not better.

Update on progress - I put 300 miles on the wheels last week and am absolutely sold on them/my decision to ditch the zipps for them.
2018 Specialized Tarmac Pro - Oil Chameleon

robertbb
Posts: 1613
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

by robertbb

Don't get me wrong, I hope you enjoy the wheels.

But internal nipples... what bright spark at DT thought that was a good idea :?

by Weenie


Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

Fast becoming my favorite combo.

DT Swiss oxic 1400
Maxxis High Road TR
RapidAir sealant
Swissstop BXP padsImage

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NLC86
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:37 pm

by NLC86

Hi, I'm looking for a climbing rim wheelset (for clincher). My key criteria are:
- Stiffness
- Lightness
- Reliability and durability
- Braking performance (Dry/Wet)
- Assistance and Warranty

Which one would you pick between?
- Bontrager Aeolus XXX TLR 2
- Roval CLX 32
- Fulcrum Racing Zero Carbon
- Other?

PS I forgot to mention...they will be used on a Trek Emonda SLR

Penthousepete
Posts: 39
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:56 pm
Location: Bournemouth, UK

by Penthousepete

Paddypurplepuss wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:25 pm
Hey guys. So im about to buy a new set of wheels which will mainly be used for climbing. My budget is around 2k. Im looking at rim brake only. The main reason for buying these wheels is to acheive the best time possible for next years etape. Ive narrowed it down to a couple of wheels which I will list here - if there are any other wheels that arent in the list and you think are woth trying maybe post them in the comments.

These are the wheels im looking at and am trying to figure out which are the best for the job. ¬

1. Mavic Cosmic Carbon Pro SL
2. Fulcrum Racing Zero
3. DT Swiss Pr 1400 dicut
4. DT Swiss Pr1400 dicut oxic
5. Dt Swiss PRC 1400 spline 35mm
6. Hunt 36 UD carbon spoke

Just to give some more clarity - at the moment I have a set of 2 year old Zipp 404 firecrest carbon wheels on my bike which is a canyon ultimate. So I want a wheel that is obviously better for climbing than these. The Zipps are actually fine on short climbs but on long decsents they are very hairy! Also im 1.83cm tall and am 82kg. I will be around 78kg for the etape if that helps.
Hi, what did you go for in the end?
Losing weight is an education
Hong Fu Bikes FM0069 Superlight 2014 (SRAM Red, Tune TSR30)
Cannondale Flash F1 '10
Felt Brougham '10

ericlambi
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:16 pm

by ericlambi

NLC86 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:30 pm
Hi, I'm looking for a climbing rim wheelset (for clincher). My key criteria are:
- Stiffness
- Lightness
- Reliability and durability
- Braking performance (Dry/Wet)
- Assistance and Warranty

Which one would you pick between?
- Bontrager Aeolus XXX TLR 2
- Roval CLX 32
- Fulcrum Racing Zero Carbon
- Other?

PS I forgot to mention...they will be used on a Trek Emonda SLR
Hey- I recently bought a set of rival clx32. Braking performance is very poor compared to my Enve wheels. If I had it to do over again I'd buy Enve or Zipp NSW. The extra 75 or 100g, whatever, is worth it. Actually, now that it's brought up, nothing stopping me from just buying a better wheel set, probably will. No idea about those other wheels you mention.

jpmoore4
Posts: 21
Joined: Sat May 02, 2020 2:21 am

by jpmoore4

I have been researching a climbing wheelset to put on my Emonda SLR. I've just been riding with the stock, aluminum 1550g clinchers. This is what I have concluded:

1. Tubeless will be more effecient, at least up to steep terrain (9%+). This can be calculated based on the crr of the best tubular and tubeless wheels, and the bike + my weight and 15-minute power. The best tubeless tires seem to be 2 watts faster than the best tubulars at 12MPH. So I concluded that a 1300g tubless wheel would be better than a 900g tubular.
2. Aerodynamics matter, even at 10-12 MPH. Savings between a 25mm and 50mm rim is on the order of 5 watts at 12MPH.

I would guess that the break-even point for 900g/25mm tubulars and 1300g/50mm clinchers is around 14% for my weight (55kg) and power (300W 15 minute) taking both aerodynamics and rolling resistance into account.

-- Obviously, at faster speeds/flatter terrain the numbers become even more favorable for deep rims and tubeless.

So I'm leaning towards Farsports 50mm Tubeless with Carbon-Ti hubs.

robertbb
Posts: 1613
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

by robertbb

What if you had a big meal the night before? Or a glass of wine? Or happen to not be as thirsty and carry a little extra water in your bidon? The extra weight, not to mention the reduced blood circulation or hydration, will have a bigger performance hit than any aero/weight gains at the infinetesimally small margins we're talking here.

What if you get a bug or a poor night's sleep the night before the ride?

The mythical gains to be had from lighter wheels have been totally dispelled. Rotating mass doesn't matter. Is your stem slammed at -17 degrees and can you ride that position at full gas for a long time with forearms parallel to the ground? Do you have an aero helmet? You know, that's going to get you the biggest performance gain by far. If that's even important.

If you aren't living every second of your life with the sole aim of going as fast as you possibly can (i.e. you aren't getting paid to ride a bicycle, or aspire to be), chasing this type of performance via equipment is a fools (expensive) game.

jpmoore4
Posts: 21
Joined: Sat May 02, 2020 2:21 am

by jpmoore4

robertbb wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:41 am
What if you had a big meal the night before? Or a glass of wine? Or happen to not be as thirsty and carry a little extra water in your bidon? The extra weight, not to mention the reduced blood circulation or hydration, will have a bigger performance hit than any aero/weight gains at the infinetesimally small margins we're talking here.

What if you get a bug or a poor night's sleep the night before the ride?

The mythical gains to be had from lighter wheels have been totally dispelled. Rotating mass doesn't matter. Is your stem slammed at -17 degrees and can you ride that position at full gas for a long time with forearms parallel to the ground? Do you have an aero helmet? You know, that's going to get you the biggest performance gain by far. If that's even important.

If you aren't living every second of your life with the sole aim of going as fast as you possibly can (i.e. you aren't getting paid to ride a bicycle, or aspire to be), chasing this type of performance via equipment is a fools (expensive) game.
It depends on how competitive you are. If you want to win that race, you better not hae a glass of wine or a big meal the night before.

For me, I'm pretty good, a cat 1 racer wieghing 55kg. I cannot just drop a kg off my body weight, that is too low for me. If I want to win races, I have to beat the domestic pros. At this level, 1% gain is significant. Heck, I can get a 4% gain just by replacing my trainig tires with racing tires. And of course I race with an aero helmet. :) There are gains to be had, and they all add up. I was calculating the cumulative gains of my new bike setup vs my 15 year old one I am replacing, and we're looking at something like a 10% reduction in power to hold the same speed.

Visus
Posts: 146
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:43 pm

by Visus

jpmoore4 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:37 pm
robertbb wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:41 am
What if you had a big meal the night before? Or a glass of wine? Or happen to not be as thirsty and carry a little extra water in your bidon? The extra weight, not to mention the reduced blood circulation or hydration, will have a bigger performance hit than any aero/weight gains at the infinetesimally small margins we're talking here.

What if you get a bug or a poor night's sleep the night before the ride?

The mythical gains to be had from lighter wheels have been totally dispelled. Rotating mass doesn't matter. Is your stem slammed at -17 degrees and can you ride that position at full gas for a long time with forearms parallel to the ground? Do you have an aero helmet? You know, that's going to get you the biggest performance gain by far. If that's even important.

If you aren't living every second of your life with the sole aim of going as fast as you possibly can (i.e. you aren't getting paid to ride a bicycle, or aspire to be), chasing this type of performance via equipment is a fools (expensive) game.
It depends on how competitive you are. If you want to win that race, you better not hae a glass of wine or a big meal the night before.

For me, I'm pretty good, a cat 1 racer wieghing 55kg. I cannot just drop a kg off my body weight, that is too low for me. If I want to win races, I have to beat the domestic pros. At this level, 1% gain is significant. Heck, I can get a 4% gain just by replacing my trainig tires with racing tires. And of course I race with an aero helmet. :) There are gains to be had, and they all add up. I was calculating the cumulative gains of my new bike setup vs my 15 year old one I am replacing, and we're looking at something like a 10% reduction in power to hold the same speed.
I guess you know that the Emonda (Mk1 and 2) is, compared to other contemporary race frames, an aerodynamic brick. In your case a different frame would actually make sense. More than a different wheelset imo.

jpmoore4
Posts: 21
Joined: Sat May 02, 2020 2:21 am

by jpmoore4

Visus wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:11 pm
jpmoore4 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:37 pm
robertbb wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:41 am
What if you had a big meal the night before? Or a glass of wine? Or happen to not be as thirsty and carry a little extra water in your bidon? The extra weight, not to mention the reduced blood circulation or hydration, will have a bigger performance hit than any aero/weight gains at the infinetesimally small margins we're talking here.

What if you get a bug or a poor night's sleep the night before the ride?

The mythical gains to be had from lighter wheels have been totally dispelled. Rotating mass doesn't matter. Is your stem slammed at -17 degrees and can you ride that position at full gas for a long time with forearms parallel to the ground? Do you have an aero helmet? You know, that's going to get you the biggest performance gain by far. If that's even important.

If you aren't living every second of your life with the sole aim of going as fast as you possibly can (i.e. you aren't getting paid to ride a bicycle, or aspire to be), chasing this type of performance via equipment is a fools (expensive) game.
It depends on how competitive you are. If you want to win that race, you better not hae a glass of wine or a big meal the night before.

For me, I'm pretty good, a cat 1 racer wieghing 55kg. I cannot just drop a kg off my body weight, that is too low for me. If I want to win races, I have to beat the domestic pros. At this level, 1% gain is significant. Heck, I can get a 4% gain just by replacing my trainig tires with racing tires. And of course I race with an aero helmet. :) There are gains to be had, and they all add up. I was calculating the cumulative gains of my new bike setup vs my 15 year old one I am replacing, and we're looking at something like a 10% reduction in power to hold the same speed.
I guess you know that the Emonda (Mk1 and 2) is, compared to other contemporary race frames, an aerodynamic brick. In your case a different frame would actually make sense. More than a different wheelset imo.
Yes, price being equal, a new frame would save me more power. However, upgrading to a new/light frame is much more expensive than upgrading to Farsports 50mm wheel. I would guess that watt/$ favors a wheel, at least in a new condition.

tomato
Posts: 128
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:37 pm

by tomato

robertbb wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:41 am
What if you had a big meal the night before? Or a glass of wine? Or happen to not be as thirsty and carry a little extra water in your bidon? The extra weight, not to mention the reduced blood circulation or hydration, will have a bigger performance hit than any aero/weight gains at the infinetesimally small margins we're talking here.

What if you get a bug or a poor night's sleep the night before the ride?

The mythical gains to be had from lighter wheels have been totally dispelled. Rotating mass doesn't matter. Is your stem slammed at -17 degrees and can you ride that position at full gas for a long time with forearms parallel to the ground? Do you have an aero helmet? You know, that's going to get you the biggest performance gain by far. If that's even important.

If you aren't living every second of your life with the sole aim of going as fast as you possibly can (i.e. you aren't getting paid to ride a bicycle, or aspire to be), chasing this type of performance via equipment is a fools (expensive) game.
This is the weightweenies forum. Claiming wheel weight doesn't matter is like claiming on a muscle car forum that horsepower doesn't matter. It's a tough sell ...

robertbb
Posts: 1613
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

by robertbb

I see what you're trying to say but it's a poor analogy. System weight is what matters: rider + bike + accessories. "Rotationa mass" is also a myth.

Try changing from 1500g wheels to 1400g wheels. 100g as a % of an 80kg system weight (say, 73kg rider, 7kg bike/bidons) is 0.13% difference in overall weight. That's the weight difference. The actual performance difference is even smaller... so much so as to be nonexistent.

Get a wheelset that doesn't rub your brakes (i.e. is stiff enough) and which gets minimally affected by crosswinds.

tomato
Posts: 128
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:37 pm

by tomato

robertbb wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:30 am
Try changing from 1500g wheels to 1400g wheels. 100g as a % of an 80kg system weight (say, 73kg rider, 7kg bike/bidons) is 0.13% difference in overall weight. That's the weight difference. The actual performance difference is even smaller... so much so as to be nonexistent.
It doesn't matter how small the performance difference is. Weightweenieism isn't about performance -- it's about weight.

User avatar
Alexbn921
Posts: 641
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 pm

by Alexbn921

robertbb wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:30 am
I see what you're trying to say but it's a poor analogy. System weight is what matters: rider + bike + accessories. "Rotationa mass" is also a myth.

Try changing from 1500g wheels to 1400g wheels. 100g as a % of an 80kg system weight (say, 73kg rider, 7kg bike/bidons) is 0.13% difference in overall weight. That's the weight difference. The actual performance difference is even smaller... so much so as to be nonexistent.

Get a wheelset that doesn't rub your brakes (i.e. is stiff enough) and which gets minimally affected by crosswinds.
Rotational mass is not a myth. It has solid science behind it. Just because it's a small percentage of the total mass doesn't mean that it somehow has no effect. Every pedal stroke is an acceleration.

Stronger heavier wheels could be faster if they transmit the power better with less wind up and flex.

by Weenie


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