The wheelbuilding thread

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
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WinterRider
Posts: 577
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:46 pm

by WinterRider

I sorta got the boot back when.. no complaint. Mighta been somewhat.. :roll: dunno the word/s.

Am... very interested in the wine consumption though..... :smartass:
Litespeed 2000 Appalachian 61 cm
Litespeed 1998 Blue Ridge 61cm

Fitness rider.. 1 yr from seven decades age.

That is my story and I'm stick'n to it.

by Weenie


NovemberDave
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Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:42 am
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by NovemberDave

Many people on this thread will be more familiar with wheel building than the intended audience for these videos, but we just posted two videos of how we lace, tension, and true radial front wheels (the simplest build). Part 1 https://novemberbicycles.com/blogs/blog ... al-tension and Part 2 https://novemberbicycles.com/blogs/blog ... final-true.

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WinterRider
Posts: 577
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:46 pm

by WinterRider

Video well done. Someone new to building should start w it.

If I had to build daily I'd use hex heads tensioning w a racket.. assuming Sapim makes the polyax style nip in that flavor. I assume adding a torque like tool to uniform the force applied is the plan.

Fronts w spokes inbound.. everyone does it. A few don't..saw a pro site this winter showing outbound.. the only way I make a front. The 'excuse' is spoke over the flange... :noidea:

Look at the rear left sides x'd spokes of these 11/12 speeds .. the outbound left take more 'flange' and any front build of same flavor.
Litespeed 2000 Appalachian 61 cm
Litespeed 1998 Blue Ridge 61cm

Fitness rider.. 1 yr from seven decades age.

That is my story and I'm stick'n to it.

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LeDuke
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Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:39 am
Location: Front Range, CO

by LeDuke

Is R2 the only Euro webshop still selling DT Swiss hubs or complete wheels? All of the others I'd usually check are no longer selling to US customers.

alcatraz
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Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

LeDuke wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 3:34 pm
Is R2 the only Euro webshop still selling DT Swiss hubs or complete wheels? All of the others I'd usually check are no longer selling to US customers.
Sorry LeDuke. I'm not familiar with shops selling dt swiss hubs. Are you still looking for them?

jever98
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Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:02 pm
Location: Seattle

by jever98

Hi folks,

Apologies if this has bench asked before, it's hard to find this kind of answer using search.

I've built a number of wheelsets with good results: dt swiss hubs, light bicycle rims of different flavors, and sapim spokes.

For myself - 90kg, 2m tall, I have tended to go for 24 front, 28 rear for gravel and cx disc wheels, with cx sprint and cx ray mix. For a winter commuter bike d- light spokes. All work well - no truing needed after a cx season, no breakage, sufficiently stiff. The reason for 28 at that back is that I have broken msny spokes on rear wheels over the years and over built a bit on those grounds.

I was wondering about spokes for mtb: if I wanted to build an XC to AM 29er boost wheel set for myself, with 30mm ID carbon rims, I was thinking 28 spokes front and rear. In terms of round spokes, should I just stick with trusted d-light or go heavier or lighter?

How would your advice vary for my wife, who is <60kg? Laser spokes for her?

Thanks in advance
----
No longer in the industry

alcatraz
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Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

Shallower or lighter rims benefit from thicker spokes or higher counts. Heavy rider, rough terrain, disc brakes all are reasons for a more solid build. Not to mention the fact that you could be far away from any help should the bike break down somewhere.

There are many models and brands but look at the spoke weight when determining it's resiliance. You have 4, 5, 6 etc gram spokes to choose from. Bladed or round. I don't think you'll notice a big difference between the different major brand's stainless steel spokes.

jever98
Posts: 1026
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:02 pm
Location: Seattle

by jever98

Alcatraz,

I have heard the opposite quite often - that thunder spokes make a less stiff wheel, but are not necessarily going to make a more fragile one. Eg some wheel builders claim that cx Ray are more durable than cx sprint, which are thicker.

Any others with experience in the matter?
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bm0p700f
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
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by bm0p700f

LeDuke wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 3:34 pm
Is R2 the only Euro webshop still selling DT Swiss hubs or complete wheels? All of the others I'd usually check are no longer selling to US customers.
I'll sell you a set. Drop me a email with what you need.

alcatraz
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Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

Are you sure the builders aren't comparing cx-ray at a higher count, with cx-sprint at a lower count?

jever98
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Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:02 pm
Location: Seattle

by jever98

alcatraz wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:52 pm
Are you sure the builders aren't comparing cx-ray at a higher count, with cx-sprint at a lower count?
https://dcrwheels.co.uk/custom-wheelset ... es-advice/

They claim the cx Ray is more durable than the thicker sprint. That's why I was wondering.
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No longer in the industry

alcatraz
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Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

I wonder if those strength numbers were supplied by Sapim or by independent testing. I mean they could have a slightly stronger design but there are probably some rounding and marketing errors if they're supplied by the manufacturer.

The 20% extra weight going 5 instead of 4gr is going to produce a greater absolute strength increase than the 1600 vs 1500 value (minus marketing + rounding error). So the wheel is highly unlikely going to break earlier with cx-sprint vs cx-ray.

I wonder where this strength increase comes from? I'd have guessed the forging technique of steel is already quite developed with most manufacturers. Maybe there still are secrets left in the manufacturing that can produce tangible differences?

kervelo
Posts: 379
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:58 am
Location: Finland

by kervelo

LeDuke wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 3:34 pm
Is R2 the only Euro webshop still selling DT Swiss hubs or complete wheels? All of the others I'd usually check are no longer selling to US customers.
There are many online stores selling Dt Swiss: for example
https://www.bike24.com/brands/dt-swiss?pageSize=60
https://www.bike-components.de/de/DT-Swiss/
https://www.bike-discount.de/en/dt-swiss

Many other shops too, but those were the ones I usually check. Unfortunately I don't know their policies for shipping to US.

jfranci3
Posts: 1026
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:21 pm

by jfranci3

I think the newer models are under the local policy. The non-exp stuff ships to the US, the EXP stuff doesn't. I think some of the sketchy Italian sites sell to the US or you can buy a wheelset, scavenge then parts, and sell the rest (the CR 1400 or PR1400 is about $550 shipped. You get 2x 240 hubs , $50 in adapters, 2x $50 rims, and $50 in spokes to resell)

by Weenie


bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

jever98 wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:34 am
alcatraz wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:52 pm
Are you sure the builders aren't comparing cx-ray at a higher count, with cx-sprint at a lower count?
https://dcrwheels.co.uk/custom-wheelset ... es-advice/

They claim the cx Ray is more durable than the thicker sprint. That's why I was wondering.
Simply not true. If claiming durability by a some fatigue test of the spoke alone then may be but in a wheel the situation is different. A load on the wheel will cause a length change in the spoke. It's a simple fact that the stiffer the wheel the smaller the length change and therefore the slower the fatigue rate.

Cx sprints in a wheel make the wheel stiffer and therefore will last longer before fatigue causes one to fail.

Test a cx sprint and cx ray in a jig and you may find for a given cyclic load the cx ray has to go through more cycles to failure but that's in a jig. (That's not a test I have done so I cant comment on it and I wont repeat sapim results unless I can verify them myself). Oddly enough that's not a wheel test so the test is not relevant either in the context of a wheel. That's a misuse of the word strength.

I build with both spokes and both have there place.

There are some other errors in the dcr page like higher tension makewheels stiffer. In fact they can reduce stiffness at the extreme. In the normal ranage of tensions, spoke tension has no.impact on wheel stiffness.

You cannot make a claim a spoke durability from a fatigue out side a wheel. Spoke fatigue and wheel stiffness are intimatley linked.

Spoke strength in that way dcr wheels is using it is not really that relevant to a wheel. Spoke failure tensions are much higher than they will ever experience in service. The strength per mm^2 is also not a relevant measure. The absolute strength of the spoke is as fatigue reduces that over time and eventually peak loads are experienced that are higher than the spokes residual strength and it fails. So in the case of downhill racing. The cx ray in combination with the rim chosen provide sufficient radial and lateral stiffness that the wheel survives the run. Once again it not the spoke that "strong" enough it the whole wheel.

Spoke stiffness is very relevant to how the wheel flexes with the loads applied to it.

Spoke butting has a real effect as moving the length changes to the centre section is a good idea. Using the thickest elbow your hub can accommodate is also sensible which is why I use a lot of force and cx force triple butted spokes.

The article is not totally wrong but there are a few inaccuracies which help perpetuate wheel building lore and prevent proper analysis of what actually going on a wheel.

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