Campagnolo Potenza vs Shimano R7000/R8000

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
JoO
Posts: 305
Joined: Thu May 04, 2017 7:30 am

by JoO

nachetetm wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:52 am
My understanding from the forums is that Campy is releasing a two new groupsets, a1X and a "classic-looking" one that would replace potenza, perhaps with 12 speed.
Does this rumour merit is own thread? it is now hidden in this thread.

nachetetm
Posts: 135
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:54 pm

by nachetetm

JoO wrote:
nachetetm wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:52 am
My understanding from the forums is that Campy is releasing a two new groupsets, a1X and a "classic-looking" one that would replace potenza, perhaps with 12 speed.
Does this rumour merit is own thread? it is now hidden in this thread.
I'm just parroting what I read around the forums from people much more informed than me. The 1X 13spd I read it from two independent reliable sources, so there must be some truth.

by Weenie


XCProMD
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by XCProMD

I can’t elaborate as you may understand, but the phase out of Potenza is more of a branding change (yet another one at Campag) than the real components actually disappearing.

Yes there will be a 1x option but there will also be a carry over and evolution of many components and subassemblies spill over part of the new range. Part of them come from Mechrom (the Campagnolo owned Romanian company) where there is still a substantial investment going on in a new facility. But there’s a lot going on in Vicenza as we speak too.


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raisinberry777
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by raisinberry777

JoO wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:25 am
nachetetm wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:52 am
My understanding from the forums is that Campy is releasing a two new groupsets, a1X and a "classic-looking" one that would replace potenza, perhaps with 12 speed.
Does this rumour merit is own thread? it is now hidden in this thread.
Someone over on The Paceline forums was saying that apparently 1x13 was coming later this year - no idea how COVID-19 may have affected that though.

graeme_f_k
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by graeme_f_k

smokva wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:03 pm
I'm big Campagnolo fan and have their 11 speed stuff on 3 bikes + Bora WTO hubs + Record and Chorus hubs on few wheels.
My conclusion is following...

Campagnlo shifters and their ergonomy are on another level, for me it is so good that I'm building my bikes arround it, it is the only thing that must be there.
So, shifters and derailleurs are must have from Campagnolo Ultrashift range, maybe I could live with Powershift ergonomy, but am not convinced it is of the same quality like Ultrashift.
Ultrshift 2009-2014 SR, R and C were the same, from 2015 Chorus become crap, and from 12 speed I would swear only on SR. I have two friends with 2015 Chorus Ultrashift and their shifters are crap compared to my 2009 Record and 2011 Chorus. They were flappy, changed like crap and even got unscrewed by themselves. I rebuilt them just for them to work, but they never worked like previous ones. Record and SR seem to keep quality and work good even after 2015 model.
Front derailleur is best the one without carbon cage...I made Super Super Record for my self, 2009 SR with Chorus non carbon cage. Rear derailleur, they all work.

Brakes, SR ones with ball bearings are crap and had better luck with plain Veloce. On the other hand Record level direct mount seem to be fantastic.

Crankset, I own 3 set of Ultratorque..2 x Record and one Veloce CT. They all suffer from the same problem. After you press-change bearings few times shaft-bearing connection becomes loose and basically you ducked shaft. On poor material Veloce shaft it even got loose with original bearings, that material is too soft. I sonehow repaired left crank with hard loctite. So don't get anything below Chorus there because shaft material might be problem, also move away from ti shaft. Because of that I have moved away to Shimano crankets where bearings are not pressed onto shaft but are pressed into BB cups, they are "free" on the shaft. With time I also started questioning Hirth joint and preload with wavy washer...overengineerd and complicated.
Plus powermeters are cheaper with shimano cranks ie. Stages RL.
Campagnolo rings tend to last longer, but that's meaningless if you destroy shaft before because bearings are pressed onto it.

Cassette, Campagnolo has better sprocket combinations and better materials which last longer, but price of Shimano cassettes is unrivaled. For long Campagnolo's cheapest 11sp option was 110 Eur Chorus vs 35 Eur Shimano 105. Winner is clear, I change cassettes like chains.

Chain...imho in this respect Campagnolo is unrivaled and nothing would make me to use Shimano.

Wheels/Hubs I like simplicity of Campagnolo and prefer it, but can't really can't find any mistake with latest Ultegra or Dura Ace hubs.

So, to conclude...if I was building 11 speed for myself I would choose all Campagnolo with Shimano Cranks and Cassette.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
Hmmm, interesting.

Axle material hardness is the same from Veloce all the way up to Record (the only exception to that being H11, where an Inox axle was / is used).

We change (literally) scores of BB bearings a year and demo the bearing change on the same pairs of cranks every time we run a training course - so those cranksets, which double as the cranksets on our service bikes - hence they are regularly ridden - must have been changed 50 or 60 times each. I've never seen any suggestion of wear on a BB axle from that cause. How are you removing and re-fitting? If an in-line puller and a press are used, given the dimensional tolerances of the bearings that Campagnolo sell (can't speak for 3rd party bearings) and the dimensional tolerances of the axles, I can't see wear being an issue.

The additional stance width that is inherent in HT2 is not great in terms of the great god of "Aero" (for all that it matters in real life) though the lack of ankle clearance does cause some riders that we fit, issues - the Hirth Joint is a well-engineered and widely used (outside of the cycle industry) method of joining torque-bearing shafts. I don't see the problem of using a pre-load washer to compensate for inadeuacies in BB shell width control - it seems like better engineering to me, than using an annular clamp on a spline which if you think about what is actually happening, whilst it might work and work well, is pretty crude.
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!

graeme_f_k
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by graeme_f_k

Vespasianus wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:00 pm
I just started assembling a new bike and noticed that the Campag H11 kit I purchased does not have bolts to attach the calipers to the frame. Kinda surprised at this honestly and not something I ever noticed with MTB stuff I have purchased.
Campag specify that for the rear, you should order bolts of the correct length for the frame, since that length varies from frameset to frameset.

The front lever / caliper should have come with bolts supplied as the length is as close to an industry standard as we have - if it didn't, it's likely that the lever & caliper were actually not intended for the after-market but were supplied to an OE, who have sold the items on into the aftermarket in contravention of their OEM contract.
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!

Ritxis
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by Ritxis

graeme_f_k wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:33 pm
Vespasianus wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:00 pm
I just started assembling a new bike and noticed that the Campag H11 kit I purchased does not have bolts to attach the calipers to the frame. Kinda surprised at this honestly and not something I ever noticed with MTB stuff I have purchased.
Campag specify that for the rear, you should order bolts of the correct length for the frame, since that length varies from frameset to frameset.

The front lever / caliper should have come with bolts supplied as the length is as close to an industry standard as we have - if it didn't, it's likely that the lever & caliper were actually not intended for the after-market but were supplied to an OE, who have sold the items on into the aftermarket in contravention of their OEM contract.
at least Shimano supplies one size screws for the rear......this measure is common for several frames, then if they don't work it's a matter of looking for the right ones

Pumpster
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by Pumpster

As a wise man in this forum once said,

Campagnolo; because it's a bike, not a fishing rod.

flying
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by flying

bjarnetv wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:58 am


As far as tactility goes, the r9000 does change gear with a lot more gusto and loud clunking, so for people who hate the whispy modern shimano shift, there is always the older groups ;)

I do want to try out campa though, so i'll probably pick up a used higher tier rim-brake group one day to try, just out of curiosity.
Sorry but thinking that tactile on Campy gear change description mean clunk/loud/gusto shows you have not tried it
Tactile by definition is closer...."designed to be perceived by touch." I do not see Shimano as wispy modern shifting just non-descript/functional


Yes you should try Campagnolo before deciding ;)

Vespasianus
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Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:15 pm

by Vespasianus

Ritxis wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:53 pm
graeme_f_k wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:33 pm
Vespasianus wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:00 pm
I just started assembling a new bike and noticed that the Campag H11 kit I purchased does not have bolts to attach the calipers to the frame. Kinda surprised at this honestly and not something I ever noticed with MTB stuff I have purchased.
Campag specify that for the rear, you should order bolts of the correct length for the frame, since that length varies from frameset to frameset.

The front lever / caliper should have come with bolts supplied as the length is as close to an industry standard as we have - if it didn't, it's likely that the lever & caliper were actually not intended for the after-market but were supplied to an OE, who have sold the items on into the aftermarket in contravention of their OEM contract.
at least Shimano supplies one size screws for the rear......this measure is common for several frames, then if they don't work it's a matter of looking for the right ones
And if you buy a shimano or SRAM bleed kit, you get a bleed block in the kit. With Campag, you have to buy a seperate $30 bleed block.

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cveks
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by cveks

Campagnolo Potenza is second to none. Best bang for the buck groupset.

Much cheaper + 150 grams lighter than Ultegra.

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cveks
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by cveks

bm0p700f wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:56 am
Silver has gone and only residual stock left. black potenza is still about in production for this year. Next year it will have been about for 5 years so ripe for axing or changing into 12 speed.

Centaur remains as a silver groupset.

Theres thread here about a patent for a 1x cassette.
I am not satisfied with 12 groupsets at all. All 12 groupsets are much heavier than their 11 speed counterparts.

Not just cassette - all parts which proves that they are using much cheaper and heavier materials in 12 speed groupsets.

All details here

https://ccache.cc/blogs/newsroom/2019-r ... comparison

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cveks
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by cveks

bjarnetv wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:16 pm
Well, i havent tried potenza, but the only real difference between 105 and ultegra is the weight and finish quality, and just looking at the weight specs and photos, potenza seems closer to 105 then ultegra IMO.
finding weight specs is always difficult, but to me it seems rimbrake r8000 weighs 2272g, r7000 2453g while potenza is 2.339g (components only)

Sure, some say the ergonomics are good, but if you can't try it before you buy, is it really worth the gamble for people who are used to shimano?

Now if they had managed to make the groupset actually good looking, more people might have been tempted to switch over ;)
I measured all ultegra and potenza parts and potenza is around 150 lighter than ultegra

All Potenza parts are lighter than their Ultegra counterparts with exception of crankset.

But editors like road.cc get big $$$ of money from Shimano to show up Potenza as heavier than ultegra. Their little cheats are adding heaviest bottom bracket and cables to Potenza shifters, and measuring Ultegra on review all without that.

https://road.cc/content/review/220713-c ... lo-potenza

https://road.cc/content/review/251754-s ... 0-groupset

gorkypl
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by gorkypl

cveks wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:05 pm
I am not satisfied with 12 groupsets at all. All 12 groupsets are much heavier than their 11 speed counterparts.
Because with 12s all groupsets basically moved one tier down. When you'll look at materials being used and pricing it will become obvious that you should compare 11s Potenza to 12s Chorus and 11s Chorus to 12s Record. 11s Record tier is gone (which seems logical, the gap between 11s Chorus and 11s SR was already narrow), and 12s Super Record is still creme de la creme.
Cinelli Superstar Disc - Record 12s

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cveks
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by cveks

gorkypl wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:00 pm
cveks wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:05 pm
I am not satisfied with 12 groupsets at all. All 12 groupsets are much heavier than their 11 speed counterparts.
Because with 12s all groupsets basically moved one tier down. When you'll look at materials being used and pricing it will become obvious that you should compare 11s Potenza to 12s Chorus and 11s Chorus to 12s Record. 11s Record tier is gone (which seems logical, the gap between 11s Chorus and 11s SR was already narrow), and 12s Super Record is still creme de la creme.
Yeah looks like that. For me Potenza is still best bang for the buck. My setup of preference is 50/34 11-32T because I ride mountains a lot and with this setup I can go anywhere anytime.

The sprockets sequence for 11s 11-32T is:
11 – 12 – 13 – 14 – 15 – 17 – 19 – 22 – 25 – 28 – 32

For 11-32T 12 speed sprocket sequence is:
11-12-13-14-15-16-17-19-22-25-28-32

It is same cassette with addition of 16T . I can live without it.

Only cassette which looks tempting is:
12 speed 11-34T for really heavy and long climbs

11-12-13-14-15-16-17-19-22-25-29-34

by Weenie


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