Next generation of Dura-Ace Di2

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
spdntrxi
Posts: 3821
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

Alexbn921 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:50 pm
Alfus wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:15 pm
Spring ´21...
Seems legit.
This was the main reason I went with Sram. Will be interesting to see what they eventually come out with. Of course, Sram will be on Gen2 by then.
ahh dont be so sure... maybe something after AXS, but eTap never even had a firmware update. The dongle was useless :beerchug:
2019 BMC TM01 Road UCI config 7.36kg

by Weenie


Alfus
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:34 pm

by Alfus

Alexbn921 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:50 pm
Alfus wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:15 pm
Spring ´21...
Seems legit.
This was the main reason I went with Sram. Will be interesting to see what they eventually come out with. Of course, Sram will be on Gen2 by then.
Gen2? why? Etap never has a V2...

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 6069
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Alfus wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:12 am

Gen2? why? Etap never has a V2...

Eagle and eTap AXS are definitely "gen2." There have not only been electronics package changes, protocol updates/changes, but also an expanded family/range of products and also additional software/configuration options...

User avatar
Alexbn921
Posts: 560
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 pm

by Alexbn921

AXS is gen2 of etap. I was saying that AXS 12 speed version 2 will be out around the same time dura ace 12 speed comes out. They will have improvements from all the feedback and manufacturing. 2 years lead time is hard to make up, but shimano very well might put out a better system.

Ritxis
Posts: 513
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:00 pm
Location: San Sebastian

by Ritxis

Alexbn921 wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:00 pm
AXS is gen2 of etap. I was saying that AXS 12 speed version 2 will be out around the same time dura ace 12 speed comes out. They will have improvements from all the feedback and manufacturing. 2 years lead time is hard to make up, but shimano very well might put out a better system.
Do you think Sram will take out the AXS 2.0 when Shimano launches the new generation of Dura-ace? they did nothing with the eTap ............. first they would have to study what the DA 12s would bring (if it brings something special)......so do not expect added to the AXS until after a long time and / or next generation

See Campagnolo and his EPS............the years he has been and have not yet put satellite controls (and I don't think it's a patent thing)

User avatar
Alexbn921
Posts: 560
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 pm

by Alexbn921

I don't think axs 2.0 will be a big change. Maybe more of a 1.5 with small improvements.

ooo
Posts: 936
Joined: Sat May 21, 2016 12:59 pm

by ooo

Electronic hydraulics road disc brakes, dual mechanism with automatic switch:

Image

Image

[0048] As illustrated in FIG. 3, the electric actuator 78 includes a moving member 78a and a drive portion 78b. The moving member 78a moves between a first position corresponding to the first state and a second position corresponding to the second state. The moving member 78a is movably provided in the housing 77. In FIG. 3, the moving member 78a is at the first position. As illustrated in FIG. 3, when the moving member 78a is at the first position, the connecting member 50 communicates with the additional transmission 75, and the hydraulic pressure from the operating portion 42 is supplied to the signal generator 74. In FIG. 4, the moving member 78a is at the second position. As illustrated in FIG. 4, when the moving member 78a is at the second position, the connecting member 50 communicates with the transmission 72, and the hydraulic pressure from the operating portion 42 is supplied to the flow path 64 and eventually to the movable member 66. The electric actuator 78 is configured to cause the moving member 78a to move from the second position to the first position with the supply of electric power. The drive portion 78b is configured to cause the moving member 78a to move from the second position to the first position with the supply of electric power. The drive portion 78b is a solenoid, for example. The biasing member 79 biases the moving member 78a toward the second position. The biasing member 79 is a coil spring, for example. One end of the biasing member 79 is supported on the housing 77. The other end of the biasing member 79 is in contact with the moving member 78a

[0045] As illustrated in FIG. 3, the electric drive mechanism 71 includes an electric motor 71a, a gear 71b, a gear 71c, a ball screw 71d, and a piston 71e. The electric motor 71a is configured to drive the movable member 66. The electric motor 71a includes a case that is provided in the housing 77, a stator that is provided in the case, and a rotor that rotates with respect to the stator, for example. The electric power from the battery 24 is supplied to the electric motor 71a. The gear 71b is connected to the rotor of the electric motor 71a. The gear 71c meshes with the gear 71b. The ball screw 71d includes a screw shaft connected to the gear 71c, and a nut that meshes with the screw shaft. The piston 71e is connected to the nut of the ball screw 71d. The power of the electric motor 71a is transmitted to the ball screw 71d via the gear 71b and the gear 71c. When the screw shaft is rotated, the nut and the piston 71e move in the shaft direction.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Image

[0041] The hydraulic unit 46 is provided in the supporting member 41. The hydraulic unit 46 includes a base portion 46a, a cylinder hole 46c, a piston 46e, and a reservoir 46g. The base portion 46a is a hollow tubular member. The base portion 46a is provided in the supporting member 41. The cylinder hole 46c is provided in the base portion 46a. The piston 46e is provided so as to be movable in the cylinder hole 46c. The cylinder hole 46c is filled with hydraulic oil. The piston 46e is connected to the operating portion 42. The piston 46e operates in conjunction with the operating portion 42. When the operating portion 42 is swung, the piston 46e moves in the inside of the cylinder hole 46c. The hydraulic oil in the cylinder hole 46c is thus supplied to the operated device 60, so that the front wheel 20 is braked. The reservoir 46g is fluidly coupled to the cylinder hole 46c. That is, the reservoir 46g and the cylinder hole 46c communicate with each other such that the hydraulic oil that is fluid can circulate. The reservoir 46g is provided on the base portion 46a. The reservoir 46g stores therein hydraulic oil to allow the hydraulic oil to circulate between the cylinder hole 46c and the reservoir 46g in accordance with to the position of the piston 46e.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Image

[0057] The additional operating device 40B is an operating device of an electric brake. The additional operating device 40B, as with the operating device 40A, includes an operating portion pivotable around a pivot axis. The additional operating device 40B includes a detector that converts, into an electric signal, the input to the operating portion of the additional operating device 40B. The detector of the additional operating device 40B outputs an electric signal to the additional driving device 90.
'

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 6069
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

One of those "just because we can" patents, I guess.

madik
Posts: 227
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:44 pm

by madik

di2 brake is quite interesting. Its not wireless tho :) So its basically brake by a wire system. Calipers would be pretty huge and expensive since it includes some electronics, electronic motor, lots of gears to drive the hydraulic piston. Not sure how much it could be miniturise.
Functionality > Performance > Weight

User avatar
Dan Gerous
Posts: 1666
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:28 pm

by Dan Gerous

madik wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:56 pm
di2 brake is quite interesting. Its not wireless tho :) So its basically brake by a wire system. Calipers would be pretty huge and expensive since it includes some electronics, electronic motor, lots of gears to drive the hydraulic piston. Not sure how much it could be miniturise.
Probably not for non-motorized road bikes... And think of it, brakes requiring battery power and electronics can't be a good thing. If your Di2 battery dies on a ride, it sucks but it's not that bad, you survive and get a story to tell about that time you climbed 2 cols stuck in your 53x16... if you run out of battery on your brakes during a ride? You might not be able to ever tell that story! :unbelievable:

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 6069
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Also electronics housed in the caliper? Calipers get burning hot to the touch...

ipenguinking
Posts: 556
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 5:14 pm
Location: Sunny So Cal

by ipenguinking

I've been riding and talking with locals here in Taipei during last 1 1/2 weeks. Some of these people who are in the industry believe Shimano might not introduce new DA this year due to manufacturing capacity and product priority. Things should be clear when Shimano shows its 2021 lineup behind the closed door at Taipei show in March.
Last edited by ipenguinking on Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

rollinslow
Posts: 361
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:25 am

by rollinslow

ipenguinking wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:51 am
I've been riding and talking with locals here in Taipei during last 1 1/2 weeks. Some of these people who are in the industry believe Shimano might not introduce new DA this year due to manufacturing capacity and product priority. Things should be clear when Shimano shows its 2021 lineup behind the closing door at Taipei show in March.
Given that DA9100 is so good, I have also wondered whether Shimano will sit on this another year as well.

FWIW, a 10 tooth cog on road bikes for a 12th gear does not sound like Shimano at all (increased friction) so I think it will have to be something bigger than just taking MTB tech to a road bike. I also wonder if they will have a disc brake 2.0 and leap their rivals by fixing noise, pad rub, etc. I actually think if they improved the discs to a much higher standard than their rivals that would be more than just a 12cog.
Moots Vamoots RSL (2019)-Dura Ace 9100
Cervelo S1 (2010)-Super Record 12 (viewtopic.php?f=10&t=161577)
Kestrel RT700 (2008)-Dura Ace 9000
Mosaic GT-1 (2020)-in build queue

ipenguinking
Posts: 556
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 5:14 pm
Location: Sunny So Cal

by ipenguinking

One other thing I wish Shimano can improve is drivetrain noise. The 9150 on my own C60 is so noisy comparing to the SR12 on a friend's bike I've been borrowing. The DA9000 I had before is also noisy.

ooo
Posts: 936
Joined: Sat May 21, 2016 12:59 pm

by ooo

Slightly offtopic... But before D-A Shimano usually have Sora update (2016, 2012)
It may be little update, like 4720 components for Tiagra 4700 series (2019)
But even if there is Sora update, Dura-Ace still can be delayed (2007-2008)

Code: Select all

     11	Dura-Ace		R9100	R9150	2016-06-2X
 9	Sora		R3000			2016-02-2X
 
     11	Dura-Ace		9000	9070	2012-06-0X
 9	Sora		3500			2012-02-2X
 
   10	Dura-Ace			7970	2008-07-3X
   10	Dura-Ace		7900		2008-07-0X
 9	Sora		3400			2007-02-1X

   10	Dura-Ace		7800		2003-04-1X
8	Sora		3300			1999-05-1X
Last edited by ooo on Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:41 am, edited 4 times in total.
'

by Weenie


Post Reply