An hour at zone 3, is it useful?

[iheartbianchi]

Aaand a potential silly question.

I thought that I could use the Z1 sessions to practice staying in an aero position as long as possible. So I tried, but of course, this ended up increasing my HR all else equal vs an upright position due to using core and arms to sustain the position. And as time passes, the position gets even more taxing, so HR increases because of it and it becomes difficult to gauge what's my underlying leg effort.

Any way to overcome it, or shall I just stay upright?

It is natural for your HR to be higher in an aero tuck if you are not adjusted to this position. You are using your core and upper body muscles more, which requires a greater amount of blood flow to those muscles, which means a higher heart rate. Depending on the person, this may also mean that you are recruiting different muscle fibers (or fewer) in this position due to a change in your hip angle and position on the saddle, and if these fibers are not as developed, then again your heart will need to pump harder to send sufficient blood to these fibers (similar to why your heart rate can be a bit higher after you change your saddle height, fore/aft and cleat positions).

You should spend time riding on the drops or other aero position each week and do core work. After a few months, it should feel natural and comfortable, assuming your bike fit is correct.

[robeambro]

Aaand a potential silly question.

I thought that I could use the Z1 sessions to practice staying in an aero position as long as possible. So I tried, but of course, this ended up increasing my HR all else equal vs an upright position due to using core and arms to sustain the position. And as time passes, the position gets even more taxing, so HR increases because of it and it becomes difficult to gauge what's my underlying leg effort.

Any way to overcome it, or shall I just stay upright?

It is natural for your HR to be higher in an aero tuck if you are not adjusted to this position. You are using your core and upper body muscles more, which requires a greater amount of blood flow to those muscles, which means a higher heart rate. Depending on the person, this may also mean that you are recruiting different muscle fibers (or fewer) in this position due to a change in your hip angle and position on the saddle, and if these fibers are not as developed, then again your heart will need to pump harder to send sufficient blood to these fibers (similar to why your heart rate can be a bit higher after you change your saddle height, fore/aft and cleat positions).

You should spend time riding on the drops or other aero position each week and do core work. After a few months, it should feel natural and comfortable, assuming your bike fit is correct.

Oh but if feels normal and comfortable, but will still increase my HR compared to being on the tops and enjoying the countryside views for the same (perceived) effort. But I guess that training these muscles is also part of the broader concept of "being able to sustain lower intensity efforts at a lower HR".

[TheRich]

Oh but if feels normal and comfortable, but will still increase my HR compared to being on the tops and enjoying the countryside views for the same (perceived) effort. But I guess that training these muscles is also part of the broader concept of "being able to sustain lower intensity efforts at a lower HR".

How much higher would your HR be if you were putting out enough power to make up for the power lost through drag?

[robeambro]

Oh but if feels normal and comfortable, but will still increase my HR compared to being on the tops and enjoying the countryside views for the same (perceived) effort. But I guess that training these muscles is also part of the broader concept of "being able to sustain lower intensity efforts at a lower HR".

How much higher would your HR be if you were putting out enough power to make up for the power lost through drag?

I haven't checked to be honest, and even if I did check I don't really have a power meter, so it'd hardly be a scientific measurement...

[TheRich]

Oh but if feels normal and comfortable, but will still increase my HR compared to being on the tops and enjoying the countryside views for the same (perceived) effort. But I guess that training these muscles is also part of the broader concept of "being able to sustain lower intensity efforts at a lower HR".

How much higher would your HR be if you were putting out enough power to make up for the power lost through drag?

I haven't checked to be honest, and even if I did check I don't really have a power meter, so it'd hardly be a scientific measurement...

Pretty sure it would be significantly higher.

Bikecalculator.com points out a 15% difference in power required at 20mph between the hoods and drops. I'm not suggesting that is gospel, but even 5%, over the space of hours, is a big difference.

[robeambro]

Oh but if feels normal and comfortable, but will still increase my HR compared to being on the tops and enjoying the countryside views for the same (perceived) effort. But I guess that training these muscles is also part of the broader concept of "being able to sustain lower intensity efforts at a lower HR".

How much higher would your HR be if you were putting out enough power to make up for the power lost through drag?

I haven't checked to be honest, and even if I did check I don't really have a power meter, so it'd hardly be a scientific measurement...

Pretty sure it would be significantly higher.

Bikecalculator.com points out a 15% difference in power required at 20mph between the hoods and drops. I'm not suggesting that is gospel, but even 5%, over the space of hours, is a big difference.

Oh I'm pretty sure you're right. I mean, if it made sense to stand up higher to "save your heart energy", I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be bothering with aero positioning at all nowadays.

Since for low intensity work we're supposed to say, stay in Z1, I was just wondering if I should completely discount this increase in HR due to position when training, say if I'm strolling in Z1 but then spend a few minutes in an aero tuck and go above my Z1 threshold, and this is just because I'm fatigued by the aero position, but my legs are still doing Z1 work, so to speak, should I not decrease my effort then?

It's more of a philosophical question..

[TheRich]

How much higher would your HR be if you were putting out enough power to make up for the power lost through drag?

I haven't checked to be honest, and even if I did check I don't really have a power meter, so it'd hardly be a scientific measurement...

Pretty sure it would be significantly higher.

Bikecalculator.com points out a 15% difference in power required at 20mph between the hoods and drops. I'm not suggesting that is gospel, but even 5%, over the space of hours, is a big difference.

Oh I'm pretty sure you're right. I mean, if it made sense to stand up higher to "save your heart energy", I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be bothering with aero positioning at all nowadays.

Since for low intensity work we're supposed to say, stay in Z1, I was just wondering if I should completely discount this increase in HR due to position when training, say if I'm strolling in Z1 but then spend a few minutes in an aero tuck and go above my Z1 threshold, and this is just because I'm fatigued by the aero position, but my legs are still doing Z1 work, so to speak, should I not decrease my effort then?

It's more of a philosophical question..

I do my testing outside, how I normally ride, in the drops.

[otoman]

How much higher would your HR be if you were putting out enough power to make up for the power lost through drag?

I haven't checked to be honest, and even if I did check I don't really have a power meter, so it'd hardly be a scientific measurement...

Pretty sure it would be significantly higher.

Bikecalculator.com points out a 15% difference in power required at 20mph between the hoods and drops. I'm not suggesting that is gospel, but even 5%, over the space of hours, is a big difference.

Oh I'm pretty sure you're right. I mean, if it made sense to stand up higher to "save your heart energy", I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be bothering with aero positioning at all nowadays.

Since for low intensity work we're supposed to say, stay in Z1, I was just wondering if I should completely discount this increase in HR due to position when training, say if I'm strolling in Z1 but then spend a few minutes in an aero tuck and go above my Z1 threshold, and this is just because I'm fatigued by the aero position, but my legs are still doing Z1 work, so to speak, should I not decrease my effort then?

It's more of a philosophical question..

HR is a sign of the physiologic impact you are creating. So ideally you’d want to keep as much of your time in Z1 as possible. But, Z1 for your aero position might be a different HR than you cruising on the hoods position at this point. In an ideal world you could test in different positions to figure out your zones. You’d probably find that as you became more adapted to the aero position, the test results would get closer and closer to your “normal” position.

But I get your question... same for heat or dehydration or having a hangover or being stressed about work. You’ll go crazy trying to cut it too close to the exact prescribed HR. Use RPE as a guide as well as HR. Easy rides should be easy. Easy like Sunday morning. Nose breathing.

[LouisN]

I come from a heavy sports science background and so I'll try to chime in with some thoughts.

Can you please en-lighten us more on your backgroud ? Thanks

LOuis

[montana05]

Reviving this old and interesting thread: I'm a 52 year old dutchman living in LeMarche Italy. Been active in all kind of sports since the age of 8. Started cycling in 1990 and always have been riding a lot: moving to Italy meant that my riding changed dramatically: from totally flat to hills and mountains only. My mistake the first 2 seasons riding overhere was too much intensity, hardly any ride without some higher intensity . On top of that I walk my dog almost 3hours a day 5 days a week through the countryside, it's more hiking than regular walking. Around the time this thread started I knew something had to change if I wanted to improve. For over a year I switched to low intensity riding only, I have a lot of time on my hands and 20 hours a week is a normal routine + the hiking hours totals 35 hours of aerobic exercise. I don't have a power meter or heart rate monitor or speed thingy on my bike but I do chew gum.
Yes chewing gum makes me go relatively slow and as long as I'm able to chew i know my intensity level is ok. After almost a year of working out like this I'm a reborn cyclist with lower fatigue levels then ever but more important fitter then ever. A few months ago i became member of a team and on the saturday rides i surprised myself every time: high intensity efforts are so much easier to deal with cause i recover super fast. I climb faster then ever and easily notice that my heart rate is lower than in the past at the same speeds. Only drawback is my wife spends more time in the kitchen: the amount of food I eat is insane.
This is my experience with low intensity riding for over a year, it's not boring cause I challenge myself by not avoiding any climbs and focusing on keeping my heart rate low, again chewing gum is my metric.
I'm surprised that this thread stopped, its valuable and I'm thankful I read it with Iheartbianchis comments.
What he wrote is info i already knew but committing to it is the hard part......

[Koev]

Thanks to all contributors (especially IheartBianchi for this comprehensive answers), this thread provides fascinating insights!

Last year, my first "serious year" (still only approx 7000km/4000miles), I spend most of my time in higher zones. I mainly did grouprides and intervalls on Zwift. Good progress if I may say so, 20 min power from 210 to 290, for me that is 3,86w/kg. Enjoyed this a lot, fast gains, loads of fun in the grouprides and also no problem when I did 5 hour rides. But by the start of September I felt worn out. October I focussed on slow rides, tried to recover but didnt help so November I quit cycling for 3 weeks. december I restarted with a couple of easy rides but felt my fitness just evaporated. I think this is caused because I pretty much just skipped base training. My estimate is that my 20 min power is somewhere at 250w. Still enjoyed this season very much but this is not sustainable.

Starting 2021 I commited myself to 'smarter training'. January is about getting my body to adapt to trainingstress again (4hr a week or so) February Ill try to kick it to 6-7hr/wk. Everything done at 125-130 BPM, my max is 192 so that should be correct. Starting March ill incorporate some tempo training. My restheartrate has dropped from 57 in october/november to 46 now. Patience will be key (this will be hard especially towards summertime when I wanna be able to follow my mates uphill or hammer the flats), But in the end slow but solid, high quality gains is the way to go. Looking forward to better train to my potential.

Call me Exhibit A.

Again, thanks all.

[jfl]

For over a year I switched to low intensity riding only, I have a lot of time on my hands and 20 hours a week is a normal routine + the hiking hours totals 35 hours of aerobic exercise.

Frankly, I don't know if I'm more impressed by the time you spend on the bike or the time you spend walking your dog
Anyway, when you say "low intensity riding only" do you mean you never do any kind of intensity?

[montana05]

I do have intensity , during the Saturday ride with the team but after a year I notice it takes a lot more effort to get to the higher heart rates then in the past, also an increase in power is very noticible; sometimes I'm surprised about the gear I'm in on many climbs. I do ride a 36x28 as the smallest, often it feels I'm in the smallest gear but I still have gears left. The hiking with the dog turns out to be great for strength, walking up vineyards with 30% gradients works the legs.
I do pay attention to food, more then ever its carbs carbs carbs and veggies and protein, fish and chicken.
One thing: I only work part time during the summer months from may till october 20 hours per week so I have a lot of time + my aerobic base wasnt bad, i was a elite amateur in my twenties and pretty good at climbing at 1. 85 and 70kg. Also I'm always horizontal as my wife says, i excell at sleeping and napping!
Ride safe!

[jfl]

Thanks montana05, I find your account very interesting. And kudos for your wife to be so understanding!

[izzo]

Riding fasted in ZONE3 for 2h+ is the best way to lose fat ,.....