An hour at zone 3, is it useful?

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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iheartbianchi
Posts: 306
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:17 am

by iheartbianchi

robeambro wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:26 pm
Aaand a potential silly question.

I thought that I could use the Z1 sessions to practice staying in an aero position as long as possible. So I tried, but of course, this ended up increasing my HR all else equal vs an upright position due to using core and arms to sustain the position. And as time passes, the position gets even more taxing, so HR increases because of it and it becomes difficult to gauge what's my underlying leg effort.

Any way to overcome it, or shall I just stay upright?
It is natural for your HR to be higher in an aero tuck if you are not adjusted to this position. You are using your core and upper body muscles more, which requires a greater amount of blood flow to those muscles, which means a higher heart rate. Depending on the person, this may also mean that you are recruiting different muscle fibers (or fewer) in this position due to a change in your hip angle and position on the saddle, and if these fibers are not as developed, then again your heart will need to pump harder to send sufficient blood to these fibers (similar to why your heart rate can be a bit higher after you change your saddle height, fore/aft and cleat positions).

You should spend time riding on the drops or other aero position each week and do core work. After a few months, it should feel natural and comfortable, assuming your bike fit is correct.
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by Weenie


robeambro
Posts: 616
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

iheartbianchi wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:45 pm
robeambro wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:26 pm
Aaand a potential silly question.

I thought that I could use the Z1 sessions to practice staying in an aero position as long as possible. So I tried, but of course, this ended up increasing my HR all else equal vs an upright position due to using core and arms to sustain the position. And as time passes, the position gets even more taxing, so HR increases because of it and it becomes difficult to gauge what's my underlying leg effort.

Any way to overcome it, or shall I just stay upright?
It is natural for your HR to be higher in an aero tuck if you are not adjusted to this position. You are using your core and upper body muscles more, which requires a greater amount of blood flow to those muscles, which means a higher heart rate. Depending on the person, this may also mean that you are recruiting different muscle fibers (or fewer) in this position due to a change in your hip angle and position on the saddle, and if these fibers are not as developed, then again your heart will need to pump harder to send sufficient blood to these fibers (similar to why your heart rate can be a bit higher after you change your saddle height, fore/aft and cleat positions).

You should spend time riding on the drops or other aero position each week and do core work. After a few months, it should feel natural and comfortable, assuming your bike fit is correct.
Oh but if feels normal and comfortable, but will still increase my HR compared to being on the tops and enjoying the countryside views for the same (perceived) effort. But I guess that training these muscles is also part of the broader concept of "being able to sustain lower intensity efforts at a lower HR".

TheRich
Posts: 515
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:36 am

by TheRich

robeambro wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:55 pm
Oh but if feels normal and comfortable, but will still increase my HR compared to being on the tops and enjoying the countryside views for the same (perceived) effort. But I guess that training these muscles is also part of the broader concept of "being able to sustain lower intensity efforts at a lower HR".
How much higher would your HR be if you were putting out enough power to make up for the power lost through drag?

robeambro
Posts: 616
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

TheRich wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:28 pm
robeambro wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:55 pm
Oh but if feels normal and comfortable, but will still increase my HR compared to being on the tops and enjoying the countryside views for the same (perceived) effort. But I guess that training these muscles is also part of the broader concept of "being able to sustain lower intensity efforts at a lower HR".
How much higher would your HR be if you were putting out enough power to make up for the power lost through drag?
I haven't checked to be honest, and even if I did check I don't really have a power meter, so it'd hardly be a scientific measurement...

TheRich
Posts: 515
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:36 am

by TheRich

robeambro wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:35 pm
TheRich wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:28 pm
robeambro wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:55 pm
Oh but if feels normal and comfortable, but will still increase my HR compared to being on the tops and enjoying the countryside views for the same (perceived) effort. But I guess that training these muscles is also part of the broader concept of "being able to sustain lower intensity efforts at a lower HR".
How much higher would your HR be if you were putting out enough power to make up for the power lost through drag?
I haven't checked to be honest, and even if I did check I don't really have a power meter, so it'd hardly be a scientific measurement...
Pretty sure it would be significantly higher.

Bikecalculator.com points out a 15% difference in power required at 20mph between the hoods and drops. I'm not suggesting that is gospel, but even 5%, over the space of hours, is a big difference.

robeambro
Posts: 616
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

TheRich wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:49 pm
robeambro wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:35 pm
TheRich wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:28 pm
robeambro wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:55 pm
Oh but if feels normal and comfortable, but will still increase my HR compared to being on the tops and enjoying the countryside views for the same (perceived) effort. But I guess that training these muscles is also part of the broader concept of "being able to sustain lower intensity efforts at a lower HR".
How much higher would your HR be if you were putting out enough power to make up for the power lost through drag?
I haven't checked to be honest, and even if I did check I don't really have a power meter, so it'd hardly be a scientific measurement...
Pretty sure it would be significantly higher.

Bikecalculator.com points out a 15% difference in power required at 20mph between the hoods and drops. I'm not suggesting that is gospel, but even 5%, over the space of hours, is a big difference.
Oh I'm pretty sure you're right. I mean, if it made sense to stand up higher to "save your heart energy", I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be bothering with aero positioning at all nowadays.

Since for low intensity work we're supposed to say, stay in Z1, I was just wondering if I should completely discount this increase in HR due to position when training, say if I'm strolling in Z1 but then spend a few minutes in an aero tuck and go above my Z1 threshold, and this is just because I'm fatigued by the aero position, but my legs are still doing Z1 work, so to speak, should I not decrease my effort then?

It's more of a philosophical question.. :mrgreen:

TheRich
Posts: 515
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:36 am

by TheRich

robeambro wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:07 pm
TheRich wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:49 pm
robeambro wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:35 pm
TheRich wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:28 pm


How much higher would your HR be if you were putting out enough power to make up for the power lost through drag?
I haven't checked to be honest, and even if I did check I don't really have a power meter, so it'd hardly be a scientific measurement...
Pretty sure it would be significantly higher.

Bikecalculator.com points out a 15% difference in power required at 20mph between the hoods and drops. I'm not suggesting that is gospel, but even 5%, over the space of hours, is a big difference.
Oh I'm pretty sure you're right. I mean, if it made sense to stand up higher to "save your heart energy", I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be bothering with aero positioning at all nowadays.

Since for low intensity work we're supposed to say, stay in Z1, I was just wondering if I should completely discount this increase in HR due to position when training, say if I'm strolling in Z1 but then spend a few minutes in an aero tuck and go above my Z1 threshold, and this is just because I'm fatigued by the aero position, but my legs are still doing Z1 work, so to speak, should I not decrease my effort then?

It's more of a philosophical question.. :mrgreen:
I do my testing outside, how I normally ride, in the drops.

User avatar
otoman
Posts: 496
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:25 pm
Location: Nashville

by otoman

robeambro wrote:
TheRich wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:49 pm
robeambro wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:35 pm
TheRich wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:28 pm
How much higher would your HR be if you were putting out enough power to make up for the power lost through drag?
I haven't checked to be honest, and even if I did check I don't really have a power meter, so it'd hardly be a scientific measurement...
Pretty sure it would be significantly higher.

Bikecalculator.com points out a 15% difference in power required at 20mph between the hoods and drops. I'm not suggesting that is gospel, but even 5%, over the space of hours, is a big difference.
Oh I'm pretty sure you're right. I mean, if it made sense to stand up higher to "save your heart energy", I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be bothering with aero positioning at all nowadays.

Since for low intensity work we're supposed to say, stay in Z1, I was just wondering if I should completely discount this increase in HR due to position when training, say if I'm strolling in Z1 but then spend a few minutes in an aero tuck and go above my Z1 threshold, and this is just because I'm fatigued by the aero position, but my legs are still doing Z1 work, so to speak, should I not decrease my effort then?

It's more of a philosophical question.. :mrgreen:
HR is a sign of the physiologic impact you are creating. So ideally you’d want to keep as much of your time in Z1 as possible. But, Z1 for your aero position might be a different HR than you cruising on the hoods position at this point. In an ideal world you could test in different positions to figure out your zones. You’d probably find that as you became more adapted to the aero position, the test results would get closer and closer to your “normal” position.

But I get your question... same for heat or dehydration or having a hangover or being stressed about work. You’ll go crazy trying to cut it too close to the exact prescribed HR. Use RPE as a guide as well as HR. Easy rides should be easy. Easy like Sunday morning. Nose breathing.
Age and treachery shall overcome youth and skill

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LouisN
Posts: 2771
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:44 am
Location: Canada

by LouisN

iheartbianchi wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:33 am
I come from a heavy sports science background and so I'll try to chime in with some thoughts.
Can you please en-lighten us more on your backgroud ? Thanks :beerchug:

LOuis :)

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