Are We Getting A New Cannondale Supersix?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
S6ED
Posts: 127
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:22 pm

by S6ED

Karvalo wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:16 am
S6ED wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:22 pm
Karvalo wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:44 pm
The limit is the limit for a reason. If it wasn't OK the limit would be somewhere else.

Caveat: this may not be the case if you're 110kg, or otherwise approaching a stated weight limit. :P
Not worried that the seatpost or other part will possibly fail, rather that having it maxed out is an indication that the overal size and geometry of the bike in this size is not meant for my body size.
Not really, because it depends on so many other factors, not least the simple size of the seatpost available. Just because a proprietary seatpost is kinda short, does that say anything else about the overall size of the bike? No. Can you easily achieve a saddle height of 74cm on literally any 51cm bike that uses conventional seatposts? Yes. So...
I suppose you're right. With a 51 there will also be no need for a radical -20deg stem in order to achieve my current position (any normal -8deg slammed stem should do the job) and the wheelbase at 99cm will be not much wider than my size 54 Evo2 at 98cm (which I have measured, as accurately as possible, to be almost 99cm in reality).

by Weenie


refthimos
Posts: 309
Joined: Fri May 25, 2012 6:02 pm

by refthimos

I'm definitely getting an EVO3, which will definitely replace my Giant TCR, which means I will definitely move over all my components from that bike and so really only need an EVO3 frameset, but I have two questions I will need to answer to finalize my upgrade plan:

1. Buy Ultegra Di2 bike, use the frameset and well all the parts OR wait for the frameset option(s), which I've heard are coming in October. I do like the Ultegra Di2 frameset (color is called "carbon") and it's prolly a safer choice thatn the purple/pink EF frameset, but I do think the EF colorway is pretty sharp so would like to see that one in person and make the decision then. Also unclear whether there will be another color option in the framset.

2. Which front end to use. Currently leaning towards Wilier Alabarda, for no real reason other than I think it's looks cooler than the Vision Metron. But whatever front end I choose, it has to route the cables all the way to in front of the head tube, that's a must for me.
Last edited by refthimos on Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
EVO1 | 5.37kg
EVO3 Coming soon! [6.35kg]
SystemSix | 8.01kg
TCR Advanced SL Disc | 7.35kg
P5 | 9070 Di2 | SISL2 SRM | Enve 7.8 | Disc TBD
T1 | P2Max Type S | Rolf Prima FX58/Zipp Super 9 Disc

DaiD
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:01 pm

by DaiD

floriansantana wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:39 pm
@DaiD:

Since you seem to be the go to guy regarding weight saving on the new SuperSix: What do you think is possible weight wise with a SRAM Etap 11-speed groupset?

I’m thinking of getting the 105 disc version, strip it down and rebuild it with a SRAM Etap HRD groupset.

I have Hunt 50 Disc wheels with Tubolito tubes and SRAM Centerline rotors which should save 250 to 300 grams in wheelset only.

What’s the weight of the cockpit? You said something about 300g for the handlebar only, right? You could probably save a lot of weight here, but I’m tending to still get an aero bar and not a lightweight classic bar. Maybe the Vision 5D integrated bar.

Do you know the weight of the Stock saddle?

Then I’ll probably change the seatpost as well and change the crankset to Rotor 3D+.

Rough calculation is:

8,23 kg for the bike with Ultegra minus at least 300g saving for the Sram Etap compared to the Ultegra. Then another 250-300 grams for the wheelset. About 100g for the saddle. Another 100g for the post, 100g for cockpit and other small stuff like spacers and about 100g for the crankset.

Makes around 7,3 kg for the bike without cages and pedals.

Does that sound realistic or am I missing something? Any other recommendations regarding weight savings?

Thanks in advance for your time. :)
Hi mate, those figures all look pretty sensible to me [stock handlebar was 320g, stock saddle approx 275g]. I guess you could back-check your figures by adding up from the frameset upwards, rather than subtracting from the 8.23kg I measured. Might be even more accurate? Frameset plus headset/BB, then all the components you mention above, plus cables, bartape, bar ends....

Mr. A
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:16 pm
Location: Belgium

by Mr. A

DaiD wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:56 pm
S6ED wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:48 pm
DaiD wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:33 pm

That supplied spacer is about 5mm. There's not a spacer above it - it's the way that Specialized stem came, as it's one of those ones that comes with shims to adjust the angle of it, so it's adding around a further 2mm that I don't need. The Zipp stem I'm going to get will sort that out. Cheers
What is your saddle height (BB to top of saddle in the middle), if I may ask?

I'm asking in order to figure out which bike size would fit me, given that 51 is probably too small for me with 74cm saddle height.
Ha, what a coincidence, I've just had that question from @Mr A, but I can't PM cos I haven't done enough posts/not special enough :( !

Saddle height to top of saddle in line with seattube is 737, it would have normally been 740mm but it's a 172.5mm crank, rather than the 170mm I normally use. And there's 173mm of exposed seatpost to bottom of saddle rails.

Deliveries of the rotors and spanky carbon saddle confirmed for tomorrow :beerchug: !
Super! Thanks, all the info I needed :)

My saddle height is 71,5cm so about 2cm lower then yours and I have a saddle to handlebar drop of 7 cm (yours more about 10-11 cm?), so with a slammed 10 degree stem that should work out. I currently have a previous generation Bmc slr02 in size 51, which has a similar geo as SS in 51 but i don't like the spacer stack so I'll go one size up. :wink:

DaiD
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:01 pm

by DaiD

Great! You're spot on - my bar to saddle drop is 10.5cm. But it's actually slightly less on the ss with the -17 degree stem, even though the stack/reach figures work out. Then I finally realised it's because the head tube angle isn't 73 degrees, it's 71.2, meaning my stem isn't level, it's slightly higher. Maybe just something to be aware of...

bet1216
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:52 pm

by bet1216

Is the EF replica only going to be available in Europe? It is not mentioned as an option on the US site. The authorized Cannondale dealers that I have talked to have no idea and they have also said the Evo3 will not be available in a frameset in the US. Anyone know?

It appears from the photo's of he disc frames with mechanical shifters (like the EF frame) that it is the exact same frame as the Hi-mod disc with Di2, just replace the derailleur cable entry with Di2 junction? Is that accurate from anyone that has the bike?

Thanks,
Brian

S6ED
Posts: 127
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:22 pm

by S6ED

bet1216 wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:46 pm
Is the EF replica only going to be available in Europe? It is not mentioned as an option on the US site. The authorized Cannondale dealers that I have talked to have no idea and they have also said the Evo3 will not be available in a frameset in the US. Anyone know?

It appears from the photo's of he disc frames with mechanical shifters (like the EF frame) that it is the exact same frame as the Hi-mod disc with Di2, just replace the derailleur cable entry with Di2 junction? Is that accurate from anyone that has the bike?

Thanks,
Brian
From Sigma Sports: "We're expecting the frameset to be available in mid-October. This will only be available as a HiMod Disc frameset in the EF colourway and will likely cost around £3000"

refthimos
Posts: 309
Joined: Fri May 25, 2012 6:02 pm

by refthimos

US Cannondale rep also told me October for the frameset (so I don't think it will be a Europe-only offering). Yes on EF colorway, not sure if there will be a second option. No word on price and if front end will be included.
EVO1 | 5.37kg
EVO3 Coming soon! [6.35kg]
SystemSix | 8.01kg
TCR Advanced SL Disc | 7.35kg
P5 | 9070 Di2 | SISL2 SRM | Enve 7.8 | Disc TBD
T1 | P2Max Type S | Rolf Prima FX58/Zipp Super 9 Disc

sgtrobo
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:36 am

by sgtrobo

refthimos wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:03 pm
US Cannondale rep also told me October for the frameset (so I don't think it will be a Europe-only offering). Yes on EF colorway, not sure if there will be a second option. No word on price and if front end will be included.
eh, this is fantastic news. Did the CDale rep give any indication when an official announcement would be made? i.e. I get that it will be available in October, but will they announce it for the US?
Basically, no EF colorway hi-mod frameset = no EVO3 for me
But I'm very much liking the EF, especially if I can build it up without the kNOT anchors. :)

nemeseri
Posts: 787
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:40 pm

by nemeseri

It's awesome to see all the excitement for the new supersix. But why would you pick this frameset over the disc s-works sl6 tarmac or cervelo r5 disc? Same weight and just as aero as the supersix without the Knot cockpit. Price seems to be very similar. So why would you go with the supersix?

velov
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:09 am

by velov

nemeseri wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:19 am
It's awesome to see all the excitement for the new supersix. But why would you pick this frameset over the disc s-works sl6 tarmac or cervelo r5 disc? Same weight and just as aero as the supersix without the Knot cockpit. Price seems to be very similar. So why would you go with the supersix?
I think the people getting excited over the supersix are definitely in the minority. Not sure about the r5 but the sl6 will certainly poach customers.

DaiD
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:01 pm

by DaiD

velov wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:40 am
nemeseri wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:19 am
It's awesome to see all the excitement for the new supersix. But why would you pick this frameset over the disc s-works sl6 tarmac or cervelo r5 disc? Same weight and just as aero as the supersix without the Knot cockpit. Price seems to be very similar. So why would you go with the supersix?
I think the people getting excited over the supersix are definitely in the minority. Not sure about the r5 but the sl6 will certainly poach customers.
Good question. Could be for numerous reasons, such as both those framesets are quite a bit more expensive (certainly here in the UK), the R5 is a different proposition, people hold the previous ss models in high regard and therefore might be less of a risk spending so much money on something that they at least have previous experience with, they don't like either of those brands, or their looks, or their colour schemes, previous bad experiences with those brands, geometry doesn't work for them, the dealerships might be unfriendly...could be anything, who knows and frankly who cares? I love it when there's new stuff that I or others can get excited about. Personally, I did look at the Tarmac Expert Disc as it was a couple of hundred quid cheaper (on discount), but the red colourway and wheels looked cheap to my eyes. Didn't even consider the R5, only the S3, looks nice, a fraction too aero-chunky though.

robeambro
Posts: 616
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

nemeseri wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:19 am
It's awesome to see all the excitement for the new supersix. But why would you pick this frameset over the disc s-works sl6 tarmac or cervelo r5 disc? Same weight and just as aero as the supersix without the Knot cockpit. Price seems to be very similar. So why would you go with the supersix?
Well, people are attracted to the “latest new shiny thing”. I own an SL6 but I still can’t help but lust over new releases. Other than that, the SS has integrated cables.

Unfortunately the cockpit looks so ugly (IMO) and is so heavy that one would need to spend further money to swap it, to maximise the aesthetics of the bike and make it as light as the competition.

That said, if one doesn’t care or doesn’t need ICR, and is immune to the syndrome above, then yes, any SL6, SLR01, R5 will do.

Hexsense
Posts: 951
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am

by Hexsense

nemeseri wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:19 am
It's awesome to see all the excitement for the new supersix. But why would you pick this frameset over the disc s-works sl6 tarmac or cervelo r5 disc? Same weight and just as aero as the supersix without the Knot cockpit. Price seems to be very similar. So why would you go with the supersix?
Minor reason: because it cleanly hide the cable in an easy way to work with.

Major reason: because of geometry.
See, smaller sizes handling geometry are compromised on many bikes.
Tarmac and r5 make things much better than average by reducing bb height (increase bb drop) because short riders don't run long crank anyway, no need for very tall bb.
And also use two fork offset for small and large size to neutralize handling of slacker headtube. For example, Tarmac use fork with 47mm offset for smaller sizes, and 44mm for mid to large sizes.
Cannondale push the concept a step further, use 71.2 degree and 55mm fork offset in size 48,51,54 resulting in same trail number with longer wheelbase and front center distance.

And it make a difference,
I'll always have toe overlap on Allez Sprint up to size 54, and their size 49 have slower handling due to trail=63mm. Need to go to size 52 to get trail=58mm.
On Tarmac, size 49 have less toe overlap but still exist, and it also have trail=63mm. Need size 52 to get trail=58mm. The size 52 stack is almost too tall with -17 degree stem slam right on the head set cap, however.

Cannondale: size 48 already have no toe overlap issue, and it already have trail=58mm.
Obviously, Cannondale size 48 set up will have more seatpost exposed, longer -17degree stem with more room to go down in height than Tarmac size 52.
PS. it's not that toe overlap is ever an issue on actual race, it's just nicer to not have it at all. Trail value that result in bike that is as nimble handling as larger sizes is the main thing to concern.

Mimmo89
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:09 pm

by Mimmo89

refthimos wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:03 pm
US Cannondale rep also told me October for the frameset (so I don't think it will be a Europe-only offering). Yes on EF colorway, not sure if there will be a second option. No word on price and if front end will be included.
Any word on CAAD13s frameset? Possibly with EF colour way? :mrgreen:

by Weenie


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