The future of performance road bikes?

[Calnago]

Comparing road bikes to cars and mountain bikes is really quite ridiculous. Road bikes represent the ulitmate engineering masterpiece on wheels... light, simple and utterly efficient for purpose. Anything that doesn't fit into that is a step backwards for the road bike. Mountain bikes are rim deep in mud half the time. Disc brakes are a no brainer for them, or for the everyday winter commuter, come rain, hail or snow. And cars are, well, cars. Not even close to relevant. But for the ultimate in road bike sleekness and simplicity, the need for discs is far more debateable.
I'm just going to leave this chart here, as it should be in probably any thread where the disc brake vs rim brake debate rages on. I believe this chart is relevant now, the past, and the future, even if not a single manufacturer make rim brakes anymore. The need/relevance basis remains the same regardless of the business aspect of the industry. The business decisions of large manufacturers will outweigh any small niche markets' desire for something specific and more appropriate for their needs. And that is reflected in the chart as well... it's basically all represented... what we see on the shop floors today is the result of business decisions made by the manufacturers two, three or more years ago. I'm sure they were hoping by now this debate would be over. The fact that it isn't, and especially so in the pro ranks of road racing, has got to be a big sore in their sides at this point. That the rim brake roadrace bike may go the way of the dodo bird is perhaps the clearest case of forced obsolescence I've seen in a long time, but rim brakes just don't fit well at the moment with the profit motive and what maunfacturers need to sell and produce to maximize that. Yet still... those damn pros are just wrecking everything, still racing around on their rim brakes (where they actually have a choice), damnit... get those things out of the picture we want to show on our websites. After all these years, they've all got experience with them, why don't they want to ride our disc brake bikes... Why? Why? Why?

[tymon_tm]

I've an idea manufacturers should like - just like in alpine skiing racers stand on podium with their skis, a winner should be presented together with his bike.

when carving revolution hit the skiing industry there was this very noticeable dissonance between what "amateurs" were supposed to buy, and what "pros" would race. even slalom skis weren't that short and their radius was siginificantly bigger. so - it became a common practice to swap skis after crossing the line and present "correct" pair on the podium - the very one we could buy in every shop. the same can be done with bikes - for instance Valv wins a stage on rim braked Ultimate, but on podium he's presented with - why not - Aeroad with discs. most customers wouldn't even notice!

[AW84]

As it pertains to road bikes, the proverbal well of real, tangible product improvements has run bone dry. For the last 20-25 years, they've made continual advancements in frames, groupsets, and wheels. They were all major leaps that the consumer could see, feel, and touch.

But once you refine something to the nth degree, you end up where we are now: with bikes that are virtual parodies, driven entirely by marketing.

The frames have stopped getting lighter, so they've added "aero cues" to mask the fact. The newest generations of groupsets are getting heavier, not lighter. They've taken the simple concept of road stems and converted them into multi-piece, plastic albatrosses. Cables are being integrated in a fashion that makes them hard to service, because those non-aero exposed cables are the reason you can't hang at the group ride. And we're on some needless race to see who can get 20 cogs on a road wheel first.

We have companies marketing aero cleats and computer mounts. Are we being serious right now? Heck, even today's "aero helmets" are as bulbous and vented as those helmets of five years ago that the marketers told us were slow and antiquated. How can no one see that that they are plum out of ideas and are hoping you don't notice their back-and-forth lies in marketing?

If folks would open their eyes and not their wallets, they'd see the riders around them on 10-15-year old frames with exposed cables, round tube frames, and narrow rims and tires kicking their ass.

What we're witnessing now is marketing at work, as the industry recycles old designs and wholly reneges on statements it made previously, in order to sell new bikes. And that's going to be the way of the future, because they refined the design too quickly and gave themselves nothing tangible to dig into the well for its next bicycle. Will we see further improvement/integration in electronics on bikes? Of course we will, but the basic concept of the road bike frame, wheels, and grouset has peaked. And I may be a bit facetious here, but I wouldn't be shocked if at some point the industry recycles rim-brakes into their product line, using clever marketing to do so.

[TobinHatesYou]

That stupid chart again.

[flying]

Well they do call it commercial programming for a reason

One thing though we all assume it is over done deal forced fed disc period.

You never know....Yes sheeple/customers move in herds, but at the end of the day $$ talks &
some companies may completely stop offering at their own peril things that sell well.

It does not mean that everyone is buying the new commercial programming.

As Cal said about the non-forced Pro's & many others their choice still exists & if enough
still choose it some will not ignore the sales possibility there

For now everyone can enjoy what they want. Lets hope it continues

[AW84]

Well they do call it commercial programming for a reason

One thing though we all assume it is over done deal forced fed disc period.

You never know....Yes sheeple/customers move in herds, but at the end of the day $$ talks &
some companies may completely stop offering at their own peril things that sell well.

It does not mean that everyone is buying the new commercial programming.

As Cal said about the non-forced Pro's & many others their choice still exists & if enough
still choose it some will not ignore the sales possibility there

For now everyone can enjoy what they want. Lets hope it continues

Not to carry this conversation down the rim vs disc rabbit hole, but the old "manufacturers are just moving to what sells" line is a bit of a falsehood. They have moved their lineups to discs exclusively...of course everyone is buying discs, what else are they gonna' buy? Disc road bikes have been around for what, 6-7 years? In that time, the locals here have purchased rim to disc bikes 10:1. Now that their options are gone, that ratio has no choice but to flip-flop.

[HeluvaSkier]

when carving revolution hit the skiing industry there was this very noticeable dissonance between what "amateurs" were supposed to buy, and what "pros" would race. even slalom skis weren't that short and their radius was siginificantly bigger. so - it became a common practice to swap skis after crossing the line and present "correct" pair on the podium - the very one we could buy in every shop.

Still common practice... Possibly even more prevalent today than it was two decades ago... and still, only those 'in the know' notice it.

[TobinHatesYou]

My eventual TT bike will be disc because all my race bikes/wheels are disc. I ride in the rain, gravel, technical descents. The world is not populated by people who only ride in fair weather, especially people who ride primarily as a mode of transportation, but also enthusiasts who choose to ride/race rain or shine.

If the current penalty of disc is ~400-500g and a couple watts in aerodynamic drag, so be it. For almost everyone, these losses do not outweigh the consistent braking, the brakes not chewing up rims in the rain, the ability to run any rim/tire combo without making brake adjustments at the time of the wheel change, etc. Having to swap pads/shoes when switching between alloy and carbon rim-brake rims is one of those minor annoyances I don’t have to deal with anymore.

[TobinHatesYou]

Not to carry this conversation down the rim vs disc rabbit hole, but the old "manufacturers are just moving to what sells" line is a bit of a falsehood. They have moved their lineups to discs exclusively...of course everyone is buying discs, what else are they gonna' buy? Disc road bikes have been around for what, 6-7 years? In that time, the locals here have purchased rim to disc bikes 10:1. Now that their options are gone, that ratio has no choice but to flip-flop.

And why do you think this was allowed to happen in such a short timeframe? Where is the mass blowback from the masses if disc brakes aren’t what we actually want?

[Alexbn921]

For me personally, I've been waiting for 12 speed, disk brakes and 12/142mm thru axles. I see this as a sustainable standard that will stick around long enough for parts availability.
12 speed because I need the range. Currently on a triple.
Disks, because I like to descend fast, am heavy and think they are safer. I also wanted full carbon wheels.
Thru axles are more secure and 12/142 is a good compromise of spacing and wheel straight.
Overall this is exactly what I’ve been waiting for. I knew it would come and I am spending my money to support it.

130 disk spacing = garbage.
specialized scs = even worse garbage. Hate proprietary parts with a passion.
135 = short lived.
142 = goldilocks

I love the look of no cables too, but loath having to work on integrated bars/stems. I just couldn't bring myself to buy a bike without a conventional setup.

People talk about choice and disk have simply not been a real choice until a year or so ago if you wanted a high-end road bike.

[Calnago]

@flying: I’d like to believe that a niche market could influence the big players, but business is business. The manufacturers would be and are ecstatic over the prospective cost savings of not having to support two, or more, platforms. And throwing new paint jobs on rim brake bikes isn’t going to make a huge impact on profits. But obsoleting an entire platform, one that will require new frames, groups, everything... now that has $$$ potential in a big way. At least in the short term. But that too shall fade eventually. Then what. I’m not anti disc at all, in fact my new venture will rely heavily on servicing and building and maintaining the new bikes that their owners have no clue how to work on. So be it. And i have the means that, if I chose to do so, I could replace every single one of my bikes with a disc version. And if for a second I wished for discs on my road bikes, I would have made the switch long ago. It’s not economics that’s holding me back. It’s really that I choose to run some nice efficient road calipers with fantastic wheels that brake every bit as well as discs without the hassle, noise and maintenance, at least in the conditions I ride in. I am not wanting for better braking in the least. And aesthetics are important to me, so the current crop of most bikes these days are just butt ugly to my eye, which I understand is subjective, but that’s my view. And slap discs on otherwise nice hubs and they become even uglier. So I am quite fine with my current crop of bikes and do not see any actual frame downgrades in my immediate future. Frames are really at cutting edge weight limits as it is, and to get a disc bike close to an equivalent rim bike weight, they’d have to take even more material from the frame. As a bigger guy, I’m fine with a rim bike in the mid 7kg range, with solid components, powermeters, etc. I have no lust for ultralight framesets at my weight, that would be silly, I’ve ridden them. But the pros, they weigh nothing and could probably be just fine if the UCI weight limit were lowered, but there’s no more pressure from manufacturers (like there was not too long ago) to lower the weight limit. Because that would give an “unfair” advantage to those with rim brakes. It’s laughable. Then use rim brakes you manufacturing idiots. Lol. That won’t happen because they want to sell disc brakes and need those marketing photos of winners on discs crossing that finish line with arms raised in victory. And hence the weight limit as it stands now is all of a sudden “ok”.

Yes, I think the future of high performance road bikes is really more about the “mountainization” of the road bike at this point. So if that’s your thing, then the future looks bright. But otherwise, I think the very things that make an “ultimate performance road bike” so special (light, sleek, strong, superb handling, simple, functional, no frills, minimalistic) are being left behind in favor of marketing schtick to sell more bikes. So, if the ultimate road bike is your thing, then the current state of development has us going backwards, at least for now. Once everyone has disc brake bikes, then it’s quite conceivable that we will magically find our way doing a U-turn again, in order to ignite the sales engine once again. But we’ll have to wait some years for that. In the meantime, I’m just hanging on to what I’ve got and helping people work out the noises and screeching and fine tuning of their discs, not to mention rerouting their poorly setup rattling internal cable routing. Still can’t believe that there are shops pushing disc brakes without proper disc mount facing tools. If you do buy a disc bike, ask the shop you buy it from to face your disc mounts before you leave. If they tell you it doesn’t need it, or that they don’t have the proper cutting tools to do it right, go to a shop that is happy to do it for you and understands why it’s important.

[Calnago]

... Where is the mass blowback from the masses if disc brakes aren’t what we actually want?

There’s no blowback from the “masses” because the masses aren’t even in the high performance road bike market. But there is a lot of blowback as evidenced by these never ending threads from the niche group that is into the high performance road bike, myself included. Pros included. But it is a very niche market, and not really one that the big players want to invest heavily in when the low hanging fruit on the profit tree is, to use your word, found in the masses. And the masses, when they decide they would like to ride a bicycle, just go down to their local bike shop or online sales outlet and say “So, show me, tell me what I should buy”. And the kid on the floor points to any one of a number of disc brake bikes, with nary a rim brake bike to be seen or discussed, and says... “This one, of course”. And the “masses” say “Wonderful, I’ll take it”. In simple terms, the masses are an easy sell. The experienced, not so much. In fact, one of the more common reasons reasons I hear from experienced riders moving to discs is not “They’re better”, but rather “Well, because that’s where the market is going it seems, and I need a new bike”.
I fully admit, quite proudly, I am NOT the “masses” when it comes to bikes. I know what I want. I know why I want it. Right down to the very last bolt on my bikes. The “masses”, quite simply, don’t. And they will buy whatever is on the shop floor and easiest to walk out with, with a little help from the salesman and marketing spiel they read online websites. And these days, what’s on the shop floor is what was in the production plans three years ago.

[TobinHatesYou]

You represent a niche within a niche, but not the one you'd like to think you belong to. You have admitted you don't ride performance/race bikes particularly hard. To what end do you need any particular characteristic of a high-end road bike whether it's weight, aero, stiffness, geometry, high end tires, anything else? Seems like what you're really after is the look and how it applies to your self-image. That's all of us really. I don't have to jump over mental hurdles to include me, you, and most WW posters in the masses.

[AW84]

Not to carry this conversation down the rim vs disc rabbit hole, but the old "manufacturers are just moving to what sells" line is a bit of a falsehood. They have moved their lineups to discs exclusively...of course everyone is buying discs, what else are they gonna' buy? Disc road bikes have been around for what, 6-7 years? In that time, the locals here have purchased rim to disc bikes 10:1. Now that their options are gone, that ratio has no choice but to flip-flop.

And why do you think this was allowed to happen in such a short timeframe? Where is the mass blowback from the masses if disc brakes aren’t what we actually want?

This is just in my locale, so take that for what it's worth, but 80% just want a bike and could care less what brakes it has. 10% are passionate about rim-brakes, the other 10% are the guys that ran out and bought disc brake aero bikes the second they could because they needed the newest tech (even though it's pancake flat here, but I digress). It's the 80% who could care less and their purchase is more geared to acquiring their first electronic groupset or something that are driving the industry. Just like we haven't seen any blow-back from the death of rim-brakes, we also have never seen an outcry of 'omg, rim-brakes are dangerous' or 'these rim-brakes are so outdated, please make them go away' either. Because the masses don't give a hoot.

[TheRich]

I love the look of no cables too, but loath having to work on integrated bars/stems. I just couldn't bring myself to buy a bike without a conventional setup.

Hydro disks and electronic shifting solves that problem.

Not to carry this conversation down the rim vs disc rabbit hole, but the old "manufacturers are just moving to what sells" line is a bit of a falsehood. They have moved their lineups to discs exclusively...of course everyone is buying discs, what else are they gonna' buy? Disc road bikes have been around for what, 6-7 years? In that time, the locals here have purchased rim to disc bikes 10:1. Now that their options are gone, that ratio has no choice but to flip-flop.

There is no way that a manufacturer can force a product change on the market that it doesn't want, consumers would simply go somewhere else.

They can try to resist change, like Giant with 29ers, or Specialized with 27.5, but they either fall in line with demand or they will fail.