Time trial wheel setup Zipp --> ENVE

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
wintershade
Posts: 242
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:12 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

by wintershade

Question for this group.

For my TT/Tri bike -- When I got my Speedmax SLX last year, I kind went nuts with Zipp wheels, but haven't yet found my goldilocks situation. I own 5 NSW tubeless ready wheels, 303f, 404 f+r, 808 f+r. Living in San Francisco and training in late-afternoon/evenings when it's usually the most windy, between the deep wheels and handling a new bike, I just can't seem to get comfortable handling anything deeper than the 303 front wheel. I've tested (on an outdoor track) and I'm actually slower on the deeper wheels because I softpedal when I know a gust is coming.

My aeroweenie friends say I'm a moron for buying all these wheels, when a disc is "always the answer" and they point to the fact that a disc would actually help with handling. Moreover, having 3 front wheels to choose from on race day is adding to my decision fatigue and I'm just not getting enough time on each wheel to learn their unique handling differences. Icing on the cake is I've already had 1 Zipp hub failure in a few months of ownship, so I'm kind of getting annoyed with Zipp in general.

So what I'm considering is -- trading/selling in ALL my Zipp wheels for a set of ENVE 5.6 + ENVE Disc. I think I could get close to enough money from trades to do it. Idea would be to have only 1 front wheel (55mm deep, which is a nice middle ground between the 303 and 404), race on the Disc rear (except when not legal), and do most of my training on the 6 rear (so I don't look like the schmuck that I probably am). Seems like this would free up some space in the garage, give me good combo of aero + handling, and let me run all-tubeless, which I like.

The downside of all this, I'm rolling into my key races in a month and the throughts of learning how to handle another new set of wheels with a new braking surface, etc etc is maybe just not worth my time.....

Thoughts?

spdntrxi
Posts: 3118
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

ah.. something I might know a smigde about...

404 and 808 I dont see much difference.. to me the 404 is useless it's effected by the wind as much as the 808 in front to me. 303 is definately better then both as you have also found to be the case.

Enve 5.6 is still effected by the wind.. personally it's very similar to 303 to me, maybe slightly minutely worse but still easier to handle than 404 or 808. Rear makes no difference to me.. disc is always the answer. I run the Roval321.. and have owned the super9 and HED in the past. The HED is very comfortable for sure... then 321 then super9. If you can run the disc, use the deepest one you got.

and if you think about getting a roval321 and matching it with a CLX50 or CLX64.. you are going backwards.. my CLX50 is worse in the wind then my Enve5.6.

by Weenie


wintershade
Posts: 242
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:12 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

by wintershade

Lol, funny you should mention it. I did, for a brief moment, contemplate selling my Speedmax, getting a new Shiv, and doing the Roval Disc + CLX 64 or CLX 50, but I've heard numerous reports of how terrible those front wheels manage the wind, which is really the heart of my problem. Plus happy with my Speedmax and am not sold on disc brakes for triathlon yet.

I think the key question I have about the ENVE 55 front, is does it handle more like a 45mm 303 or more like a 58mm 404.

Follow-up though, is: Would it be crazy to switch from a 303f/808r NSW setup to a ENVE 5.DISC 5 weeks from your key race? Enough time to get a feel of the new wheel, etc.? Or do I finish the season on what I have and reevaluate all this next season.

alcatraz
Posts: 2208
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

What tires are you running?

I like to keep the leading edge of a similar profile as the trailing edge. If you run too wide a tire I could see sidewinds having more of an impact on your steering.

Gusts are annoying and can't really be avoided. What can be done is to have them feel more like even pressures rather than turning your bars. They can push you sideways but your bars should remain straight without much effort.

I'm an amateur but from my fooling around I've concluded that much.

It also helps me to keep power down by holding the aero bars from the sides during those moments. I don't know how your bars are angled. If you have ski bends that are angled towards eachother I'd imagine that being scarier to ride as you have less to brace against when it turns.

Is your frame on the small side for you?

Do you have a short torso?

I'm thinking if the wheelbase or weight distribution could be off. Those are important factors for stability which in turn provides confidence.

spdntrxi
Posts: 3118
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

Personally I think enve5 front will be the fastest of the bunch (unless you use Zipp808) but will handle very close to the zipp303.. forget the 404, to me it's the dog of the Zipp lineup. As for tire width I've used 23/25/26/28mm... no matter, that only changes comfort level to me.

The full disc is no big deal.. only if you are riding on crap roads it might be an issue as it's not as comfortable as a "normal" wheel. Since you have ridden deep wheels before a 5/full disc combo is like riding a bike.. no biggie! You dont need weeks to get used to it for sure. My default race setup is Enve5 / Roval 321 and I am happy with it. I know it's not matchy matchy.. dont tell Roval but I have a Enve sticker on a Roval321 wheel. :) The ww in me sees -200g+ savings

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 4184
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

I think everyone discussing Zipps needs to be very specific with which version of the 303/404/808 they own. Their widths/cross-sections are different depending on NSW vs FC, tubeless vs regular clincher, etc.

One thing never mentioned is that wider tires are more stable in all situations, and a lot of TT/Tri types are moving to 28mm tires and rims that mate well with them. The ENVE SES 5.6 front being 28.75mm wide mated with large 25mm or "narrow" 28mm tires is a good choice as spdntrxi has discovered. The HED Vanquish 6 or 8 may be another great option at 30mm wide.

wintershade
Posts: 242
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:12 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

by wintershade

alcatraz wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:36 am
What tires are you running?

I like to keep the leading edge of a similar profile as the trailing edge. If you run too wide a tire I could see sidewinds having more of an impact on your steering.

Gusts are annoying and can't really be avoided. What can be done is to have them feel more like even pressures rather than turning your bars. They can push you sideways but your bars should remain straight without much effort.

I'm an amateur but from my fooling around I've concluded that much.

It also helps me to keep power down by holding the aero bars from the sides during those moments. I don't know how your bars are angled. If you have ski bends that are angled towards eachother I'd imagine that being scarier to ride as you have less to brace against when it turns.

Is your frame on the small side for you?

Do you have a short torso?

I'm thinking if the wheelbase or weight distribution could be off. Those are important factors for stability which in turn provides confidence.
Hey Alcatraz -- I am running Zipp Tangente Speed TL 25mm tires. My understanding is they're pretty much ideally matched for aero properties on the tubeless NSW wheels and test pretty fast. I'm not sure if a 28mm woudl be more aero, but I doubt I have clearance.

You raise some interesting points with respect to bike size and front end setup. I ride a size M Speedmax SLX, which I was told by my fitter and Canyon is the right size. But I do have my doubts. I needed to put on a longer stem to make it work and I have my aerobars fully extended. I think a Large might have worked better, but the front-end would have been very high and the standover hight might have created issues. I think my proportionas are pretty "normal" with the exception of fairly long arms. But with respect to weight distribution, I think I'd have been more comfortable with more weight over the back wheel and a longer wheelbase. But I don't know if changing the frame is really an option at this point, certainly not this season. Hence why I'm more focused on the wheels, which I think woudl be easier to adapt to with just 5 and 12 weeks before my key races this year. If I swap out wheels and still can't get comfortable, maybe I'd revisit a new bike next season.

wintershade
Posts: 242
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:12 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

by wintershade

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:15 am
I think everyone discussing Zipps needs to be very specific with which version of the 303/404/808 they own. Their widths/cross-sections are different depending on NSW vs FC, tubeless vs regular clincher, etc.

One thing never mentioned is that wider tires are more stable in all situations, and a lot of TT/Tri types are moving to 28mm tires and rims that mate well with them. The ENVE SES 5.6 front being 28.75mm wide mated with large 25mm or "narrow" 28mm tires is a good choice as spdntrxi has discovered. The HED Vanquish 6 or 8 may be another great option at 30mm wide.
I agree with your first comment. My understanding is the old 404 FC handles worse than the new 808 NSW.

I thought a narrower front tire was actually better for handling as it presents less surface area to the wind from the side and the wider tires can create a little pocket where air detach from the rim.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 4184
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

wintershade, ride a MTB with no hands sometime and make a note of how effortless it is. 28mm tires on 30mm rims should have decent aerodynamic/handling characteristics. Yes they’ll be a little slower than a narrower tire/rim combo due to increased frontal area, but you may gain back any time lost to aero from control/comfort.

spdntrxi
Posts: 3118
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

I'm all about the 28s... wheelset #3 will eventually have them as well... I dont notice any significant slow down on the other 2 wheelsets that have them now.

I'm kinda hoping the tubeless version on the new turbo's come out soon... I'd like to try them.

Raccooningtanuki
Posts: 95
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:30 am

by Raccooningtanuki

wintershade wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:01 pm


Hey Alcatraz -- I am running Zipp Tangente Speed TL 25mm tires. My understanding is they're pretty much ideally matched for aero properties on the tubeless NSW wheels and test pretty fast. I'm not sure if a 28mm woudl be more aero, but I doubt I have clearance.

You raise some interesting points with respect to bike size and front end setup. I ride a size M Speedmax SLX, which I was told by my fitter and Canyon is the right size. But I do have my doubts. I needed to put on a longer stem to make it work and I have my aerobars fully extended. I think a Large might have worked better, but the front-end would have been very high and the standover hight might have created issues. I think my proportionas are pretty "normal" with the exception of fairly long arms. But with respect to weight distribution, I think I'd have been more comfortable with more weight over the back wheel and a longer wheelbase. But I don't know if changing the frame is really an option at this point, certainly not this season. Hence why I'm more focused on the wheels, which I think woudl be easier to adapt to with just 5 and 12 weeks before my key races this year. If I swap out wheels and still can't get comfortable, maybe I'd revisit a new bike next season.
[/quote]

Longer stem and extended bars make it easier to stay straight and aero
Spring propel viewtopic.php?t=140915
Fall guru merus viewtopic.php?t=155877
Summer carver nonsense viewtopic.php?t=156795

wintershade
Posts: 242
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:12 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

by wintershade

spdntrxi wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:27 am
Personally I think enve5 front will be the fastest of the bunch (unless you use Zipp808) but will handle very close to the zipp303.. forget the 404, to me it's the dog of the Zipp lineup. As for tire width I've used 23/25/26/28mm... no matter, that only changes comfort level to me.

The full disc is no big deal.. only if you are riding on crap roads it might be an issue as it's not as comfortable as a "normal" wheel. Since you have ridden deep wheels before a 5/full disc combo is like riding a bike.. no biggie! You dont need weeks to get used to it for sure. My default race setup is Enve5 / Roval 321 and I am happy with it. I know it's not matchy matchy.. dont tell Roval but I have a Enve sticker on a Roval321 wheel. :) The ww in me sees -200g+ savings
As you might have seen on my ST thread, I went ahead and ordered the 5.6 + Disc yesterday. I think it will be the perfect setup. Thanks for the advice.

The main reluctance initially was wondering if I am “too slow” to credibly ride a disc. Then an oldie by the Offspring came on the radio which sold me.

I'm not a trendy asshole, I do what I want
I do what I feel like
I'm not a trendy asshole, I don't give a f—k
If it's good enough for you
'Cause I'm alive

Life’s too short for slow shit. Giddy up!

spdntrxi
Posts: 3118
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

The Enve disc is a beauty.. I wanted a disc by early this year since I sold my Super9, Enve could not get it too me early enough so I went Roval. I"m not "fast" enough for a disc either and actually my Tri loop PR was done with a Enve 7.8s ( I still dont think enve is right) My little sprint series is cancelled/delayed for this year.. so I cant attempt to beat the time. :(

5.6+disc is a good combo.. you can always throw on the 808 on the non windy days still. GL

wintershade
Posts: 242
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:12 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

by wintershade

What PSI are you running the ENVEs? Their chart suggests I run tubeless at 60 PSI (155lb) which just seems bonkers for a TT. Also good god, what a bear it was to mount GP5K TL tires on the ENVEs. So much harder than the NSWs. If I get a flat that a plug can't repair, I'm done. Oh, and installing sealant in a disc wheel -- boy that made a mess.... :=/

by Weenie


spdntrxi
Posts: 3118
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

when I used 7.8.. I was tubed and running 80-85psi

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