Campagnolo 12-Speed

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
bruno2000
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Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:11 pm

by bruno2000

KarlC wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 5:28 am
For the non belivers, both brakes held closed on 28mm rim, of course you may have different results with another frame and tires.

Yes the bridge is a bit on the low side on the F8, but I do have a set of brakes that clear 27mm tubs fine . I was just hoping to keep it all Campy and I was hoping the 12s would provide more clearance than 11s but they dont, not in this case.

Image

Image
There is a small screw on the left of the brake which works on the spring of the brake.
If you turn that one you can create more clearance.


KarlC
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by KarlC

bruno2000 wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 12:56 pm
KarlC wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 5:28 am
For the non belivers, both brakes held closed on 28mm rim, of course you may have different results with another frame and tires.

Yes the bridge is a bit on the low side on the F8, but I do have a set of brakes that clear 27mm tubs fine . I was just hoping to keep it all Campy and I was hoping the 12s would provide more clearance than 11s but they dont, not in this case.

Image

Image
There is a small screw on the left of the brake which works on the spring of the brake.
If you turn that one you can create more clearance.
Yes the small screw on the left side of the Record 12 opens up the brakes, so they get wider but not taller.

Its not Campy 12 related but I tried the Pina Most brakes that where made for wider tires, it has a scew you turn also and the brake gets wider and taller !

See the below F8 with Veloflex Vlaanderen 27mm tubular rear tire.

Image

bruno2000
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Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:11 pm

by bruno2000

Oh that's a pity.
My preference would be to go with 25mm typres/tubulars and install a proper Campagnolo brakecaliper instead of the 'Most-TRP' brakes.

graeme_f_k
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by graeme_f_k

bruno2000 wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 9:54 am
Oh that's a pity.
My preference would be to go with 25mm typres/tubulars and install a proper Campagnolo brakecaliper instead of the 'Most-TRP' brakes.
Mine too, on a straight question of practicality - all you'd need would be a bit of grit stuck to the tyre and you'd potentially be in Chris-Froome-at-the-Tour-in-2017 land with the wheel pentially jammed or the tyre well and truly sliced (or both ...)

You can see that with the Campag brakes, the blocks are roughly half way down the slots - so there is plenty of clearance there, provided that the frame allows for it ... F8 is an older design, from before wider, fatter tyres got trendy ...
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Jugi
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by Jugi


graeme_f_k wrote:
Mine too, on a straight question of practicality - all you'd need would be a bit of grit stuck to the tyre and you'd potentially be in Chris-Froome-at-the-Tour-in-2017 land with the wheel pentially jammed or the tyre well and truly sliced (or both ...)
Many time trial frames have horizontal dropouts and an adjustment for the rear axle's exact placement, to have the rear tire just a couple millimeters away from the frame. Some how wheels do not jam or tires get sliced, although the rear tire's "shroud" on the frame follows the tire's curvature for a fifth of the tire's circumference.

I'd say as long as the tire and caliper do not touch, everything is just fine. It's not optimal if isn't adjustable, but it's just fine.

AJS914
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by AJS914

It's not going to be fine if you have 1/2mm of clearance. The tire will pick stuff up. You need some clearance.

flying
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Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:16 am

by flying

Wonder why Pinarello allows this or is it a design sticking point for them

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mpulsiv
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by mpulsiv

Calnago wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:31 pm
robertbb wrote:
Calnago wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:35 am
No, there is no loss of braking efficiency as a result of that. The stop is a stop, a hard stop. Super Record brakes are still the smoothest operating caliper available, bar none.
The difference is astounding. Like night and day. Have a good look at that ferrule piece on a set of C/R/SR brakes as you pull the lever and engage the rim. It moves! Which means it's losing power and the "system" overall isn't as stiff. Nowhere near as stiff, actually, as the threaded system.

If you're bored, give it a shot and see. They're cheap, and the logo says "Campagnolo" in the black-on-white logo that complements Record/Super Record nicely:

https://www.wiggle.co.uk/campagnolo-ske ... ual-pivot/

Night and day I tells ya! :unbelievable:
Ha... Yes, I’m familiar with the non series calipers. They are the same design as the Chorus calipers. They actually have a bit more clearance than Record or SR which is why I used them on the Koppenberg to test out some bigger tires. But since I’ve settled on 25mm tires I’ve gone back to SR calipers. If you are experiencing night and day difference in performance, with your non series calipers offering up better performance than SR for example, then you’ve got an issue somewhere else in your system, assuming there’s nothing broken in the calipers themselves.
Here’s a Chorus caliper, same overall design as the non series caliper, just a bit higher quality materials if I’m not mistaken (and I could be on this one). But the design is the same...
Image

I know exactly what you’re referring to with the difference between the housing stops, but once the cable is installed, that part of things is irrelevant to the function, except for the SR and Record being easier to adjust with half turn notches etc and no need to lock it down afterwards by tightening the threaded lock nut.
There’s a whole lot of things that could affect the function between the lever and the caliper however. Here’s a list to start with...
- is every end of every piece of brake housing cut square with no metal burrs left over from the cut, or messed up liner causing friction. The ends should ideally look like this...
Image

Versus just a cleaned up version of this...
Image
A small burr can really create a rough feel when pulling the lever.

- Is the end that enters the lever completely and fully seated. It’s easy for that to move around a bit during lever install and adjustment. If it’s not bottomed out within the lever, there’s a big potential source of mushiness.
- internal cable routing bends from bars through headtube etc etc. Every bend adds to the friction. And the tighter the bend, the more friction created.
- Are there any rough edges that the inner cable has to pass over, particularly as it enters and exits the top tube if internally routed through it. It is impossible to see those edges on the inside of the tube but not hard to feel them as the cable scrapes over them. Some small pieces of liner to get around those edges helps a lot.
Image

- make sure the housing stop on Record and SR at the caliper is seated properly and the adjuster is seated in its notches.

- Brake pad alignment, toe-in, etc is critical. Differences in any of these things are most certainly going to give different experiences when braking. Also, fresh pads vs old pads etc., same thing.

- at the end of the day, there’s a whole lot of things that happen between the levers and the final action at the rim. And the difference in function between the various standard Campagnolo rim brake calipers are not so great that if on identical setups a “night and day” difference is felt, then I’d be looking for an alternate explanation for that difference than the caliper itself. But SR are definitely the nicest. A further test you might want to do is to install the different calipers on the two different bikes, as none of the tests you performed tested the different setups from lever to rim completely.

I’m running the new standard mount calipers currently on two bikes currently. Functionally no different than the previous skeletons. But aesthetically they are gorgeous with the more subtle graphics, etc. and all blacked out.
Is there a reason someone would prefer non-series skeleton calipers for $70, if one can get Potenza skeleton calipers for $50?
I was blown away from Potenza calipers. They feel more balanced next to my DA 9000. Braking power is more linear, with better modulation.

If anyone has had direct experince with Potenza calipers next to Record or SR, I'd like to know whether it's worth the upgrade.
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robertbb
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

by robertbb

I think it's exactly the same caliper, with a different logo stamped on it. I went for the non-series so it "matches" the Chorus components on the rest of my bike, but that's purely on OCD and aesthetics.

Both non-series and Potenza are better than the C/R/SR calipers for the reasons I mentioned above - they are far stiffer.

Pajaa
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Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:09 pm

by Pajaa

Chorus vs non-series skeleton differences:
Chorus-Skeleton.jpg

robertbb
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

by robertbb

There is a further difference - the ferrule on the non-chorus brake is screwed into the brake body. I don't believe the chorus one is (the record and super record definitely isn't). This makes all the difference - everything else is insignificant. The non-chorus brake is far stiffer and brakes better.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

robertbb wrote:There is a further difference - the ferrule on the non-chorus brake is screwed into the brake body. I don't believe the chorus one is (the record and super record definitely isn't). This makes all the difference - everything else is insignificant. The non-chorus brake is far stiffer and brakes better.
Makes absolutely zero difference in functionality, just a little more convenient to adjust on the Record/Super Record.
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flying
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by flying

Calnago wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 3:09 am
robertbb wrote:There is a further difference - the ferrule on the non-chorus brake is screwed into the brake body. I don't believe the chorus one is (the record and super record definitely isn't). This makes all the difference - everything else is insignificant. The non-chorus brake is far stiffer and brakes better.
Makes absolutely zero difference in functionality, just a little more convenient to adjust on the Record/Super Record.

I tend to agree because if all slack/slop is taken out of cable that ferrule should not have the ability to move
threaded or not

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Exactly, and the ferrule/housing stops on both the Chorus and non series brakes are the same, both threaded. Sorry for the slight diversion from 12sp, but for clarification here’s a Chorus brake caliper (2011) once again...
Image

The only differences between Chorus and non series skeleton are as pointed out earlier in @Pajaa’s post...
Image
Chorus has a bit nicer bolts/hardware and the non series also has more generic brake pad holders. That’s it. As you move up to Record and Super Record it only gets nicer, smoother, and easier to adjust. But... Chorus, and the non series calipers, do offer a bit more clearance over Record or Super Record.
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keaton
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:03 pm

by keaton

Can a 140mm rotor be used on the front wheel of Campgnolo disc? I know Campagnolo says no, but was still curious.

appologies if this has been covered, couldn't find anything.

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