Some manufacturers forcing pros onto disk brakes for the 2019 season

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Calnago
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Some manufacturers forcing pros onto disk brakes for the 2019 season

Post by Calnago »

@ND4SPD: I’ll fully accept that correction. Thank you. I will say that adding simple hydraulics to my touring bike gave me that easy touch and one/two finger type braking that was not present with cables, and this is what I think can be shared by either rims or rotors as the braking surface. It’s the hydraulics that make it easy. But your point about the greater surface area of the disc pads is not lost on me and it’s a good one. However, even still... I just have not found any need for disc brakes on my finest road bikes. But that’s me. I’m happy to let others follow the industry trend. I think I’m jumping off the trend train at this point however.
Oh, and I understand all your points about the different pad compounds, which are more metallic on disc, and the metal rotors which are steel or alloy etc. Those are valid points for discs as well, but with all that metal comes the metallic noise which I loathe on a bicycle. The pinging, etc. I don’t know... my rim brakes are just fine, better than fine, excellent in fact and they don’t leave me wanting for anything more that adds complexity and weight.

And @C36... thanks for posting that attempt by Esco in trying to bridge the gap between the sti/ergo levers and Maguras first hydraulic rim brakes for road bikes. That’s quite a bodge they did there, trying to jam some downtube shifters into the hydraulic levers. I will say that with electronic shifting of today, it does leave room for the much needed space for the fluid reservoir. Now all we need is for Magura to make another attempt in today’s world with some nice hydro rim calipers, that not only work but are sexy as hell. But they probably have some agreement with Campagnolo not to do so for at least a couple or three years from now. Then what was old will be new again. We shall see.

And sure I’ve seen that video, GCN is like the modern online version of Bicycling Magazine. The guys are likeable and personable, and their videos are entertaining. And GCN exists to absorb industry money at the end of the day. But for the love of god, if they’re going to throw disc brakes into a head on test against rim brakes, at least use some decently good rim brakes. Where’s the head banging into table gif when I need it.
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robertbb
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Re: Some manufacturers forcing pros onto disk brakes for the 2019 season

Post by robertbb »

All those comparison videos are just rubbish.

They should either apply the scientific method properly (same brake force, same speed, same overall weight, same road angle and surface etc.) or not bother at all.

There are multiple rim manufacturers, multiple pad compounds, multiple rotor options...

Conclusions of shows like that are totally useless, totally misleading and totally designed to separate someone from their $.

TheKaiser
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Re: Some manufacturers forcing pros onto disk brakes for the 2019 season

Post by TheKaiser »

ND4SPD wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 12:58 am
Great post, but I have to correct you here.

28 wheels are 635 mm. However, not the whole 635 mm is "disc". With brake pads which are let's say 70mm in length and 15 mm in width, that "disc surface" is in fact much, much smaller.

With real discs, which are, let's say 160 mm, you get much bigger brake pads and therefore much bigger brake pad surface area... And there is more, it's not just the diameter of the disc, thickness of the disc is also very important for thermal efficiency and heat dissipation. You also have very different compounds, most compounds for rim brakes are some kind of rubber or cork, and for disc brakes most of them have some metal in them, which again gives you more thermal efficiency, and better contact in the rain vs. rubber and metal or carbon in rim brakes. That paired with the holes and slots in discs, which are not only for weight reduction, gives you much better braking in wet conditions.

In dry weather in a single stop, there is not that much of a difference:

While you are correct on many points, and I agree with you in spirit, if I understand you correctly I think you are off base with the statement that disc pads and rim pads have a "much, much" different surface area. Disc pads will tend to have less length (at least for your typical 2 piston road calipers), but greater height, than rim pads. The exact % difference between the 2 will vary by brand, but I would be comfortable saying that disc are well under 2x the surface area. That point aside, why do you think surface area is important? As I'm sure you know, the pressure/surface area/friction calcs scale such that even if disc has 25% more surface area, the friction will be the same due to the reduction in PSI (relative to the line pressure).

Similarly, in regard to heat dissapation, how can you claim that a 120g rotor can best a 400g rim in thermal efficiency and heat dissapation? Even when you throw in the pads, the thermal mass of the rotor/pad combo is dwarfed by any road rim, as is surface area for heat shedding.

I think you are right about the ability of harder pads to bite through wetness on the braking surface, and also there is the fact that rims are down in the slop whereas rotors are elevated somewhere around 12"+ above the roadway, which radically reduces contamination.

My personal opinion, as someone with several disc braked bikes, is that rim brakes could be improved substantially. There are pros/cons to any system, but if one engineered a rim caliper/pad/rim surface that effectively dealt with wet conditions, I think that the downsides of rim could be dealt with easily, and the upsides in regard to frame/fork design, weight, etc...could outnumber the downsides. At this point in time, I'm not about to go descending some steep alpine roads on carbon clinchers with rim brakes, but I think with further effort it could be done with a robust system that rivals disc brakes.

Methodical
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Re: Some manufacturers forcing pros onto disk brakes for the 2019 season

Post by Methodical »

Lewn777 wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 11:13 pm
Methodical wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:41 pm
Lewn777 wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 12:20 pm
Methodical wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 9:07 am


The market can be decided by consumers as in the past with other components; we can either purchase or not purchase disc bikes. As it stands now, there are many that are going with disc bikes (see a lot on local group rides). I'm still a rim brake guy and I had to buy a frame set in order to get the rim brake version of the Trek Emonda. I am not against disc, just waiting for the manufacturers to lighten the load of them, which I'm pretty sure will happen over time. A disc bike is probably inevitable at some point in the future. If you can't beat them, join them.
Use disk brakes for a year and do over 10,000kms and live with them. Then try a day or two on direct mount brakes a treated alloy surface like DT Swiss Oxic or Campagnolo Shamal Mille and tell me that disk brakes are really worth all the extra weight and hassle. Fact is most people buying them have no clue, they are just being manipulated into buying what's new and shiny.
I'm not arguing with you. Like I said, I am still a rim brake guy. I love my disc brake on my MB though and would have it no other way.
...It's this 'many that are going with disc bikes' and 'If you can't beat them, join them' are sentiments of the person sleepwalking into a disaster. You openly prefer rim brakes on a road bike, but at the same time you'll capitulate and roll over to allow disk brakes to take over the market because you are influenced by what other people are riding and marketing. :roll:
Negative, son. :D

No rolling over and I've never cared about what anyone is riding; I do me. :unbelievable: I see you make tons of assumptions; shame. :unbelievable: You don't know me. If all the manufactuters discontinue rim brakes you can either improvise, adapt and overcome or stay where you are; that's your perogative and no one will care one way or the other because the world will keep spinning with you and without you. Like a chameleon, I can adapt to change and keep it moving because I can improvise, adapt and overcome; sounds like you can't. You don't manufacture bikes, so no one cares what you say or think about this and as long as buyers are ok with the new stuff, it won't matter what you think on the subject (it's really that simple, it really is). Now, if you decide to start manufacturing bikes, then you got something, unless that happens, it's all lip service, baby. Disc road bikes are here (riders obviously love them because they are scooping them up) and not going anywhere and it's no big deal in my life, well because I have a life and don't spend my time sweating the small stuff; yes this is teeny, tiny small crap that is not even on my life radar, why because I have a life. If you don't like disc bikes, then don't buy them. It's a very simple solution to what you see as a problem in this free world. At the end of the day, I have what I want on my road bikes and that's rim brakes.

Who loves you, baby? :wink:
"Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark, professionals built the Titanic"

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TobinHatesYou
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Re: Some manufacturers forcing pros onto disk brakes for the 2019 season

Post by TobinHatesYou »

Same old Lewn777...arguing against someone who's actually trying to agree with him.

Hey Lewn777, I think disc brakes are worth the "hassle."

Methodical
Posts: 98
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:40 pm

Re: Some manufacturers forcing pros onto disk brakes for the 2019 season

Post by Methodical »

robertbb wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:17 am
All those comparison videos are just rubbish.

They should either apply the scientific method properly (same brake force, same speed, same overall weight, same road angle and surface etc.) or not bother at all.

There are multiple rim manufacturers, multiple pad compounds, multiple rotor options...

Conclusions of shows like that are totally useless, totally misleading and totally designed to separate someone from their $.
True, but then you will have those that will cry that the tests were not done in real world conditions. I've never had problems stopping with rim brakes, even with carbon wheels. Although braking is a bit slower with carbon wheels in wet conditions, I don't live in an area where I am forced to ride in wet conditions and I'm experienced enough to anticipate certain stops in advance, if necessary.
"Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark, professionals built the Titanic"

Trek Emonda SLR (Rage Red) - 6.27kg
'12 Trek Madone (Black) - 6.96kg
Fujee Espree (Maroon) - 11.02kg

Methodical
Posts: 98
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:40 pm

Re: Some manufacturers forcing pros onto disk brakes for the 2019 season

Post by Methodical »

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:37 am
Same old Lewn777...arguing against someone who's actually trying to agree with him.

Hey Lewn777, I think disc brakes are worth the "hassle."
Oh, I see he has a reputation around here.
"Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark, professionals built the Titanic"

Trek Emonda SLR (Rage Red) - 6.27kg
'12 Trek Madone (Black) - 6.96kg
Fujee Espree (Maroon) - 11.02kg

TobinHatesYou
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Re: Some manufacturers forcing pros onto disk brakes for the 2019 season

Post by TobinHatesYou »

Methodical wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:42 am

Oh, I see he has a reputation around here.

I'm very pro-disc, so I have my opinions on him. I honestly don't know how others view Lewn777's behavior. He thinks if he lies enough, people will believe him. He will challenge facts like how my Emonda SLR Disc weighs 6.4kg hoping ignorance prevails. Watch any thread...he's so devoid of original thought, he'll latch onto a key point someone else makes, and then repeat it ad nauseum. Currently it's the theme of American capitalism/profiteering/marketing being responsible for the "fake" popularity of disc road bikes.

iheartbianchi
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Re: Some manufacturers forcing pros onto disk brakes for the 2019 season

Post by iheartbianchi »

It's really simple guys - it costs manufacturers a lot more money to have a supply line that makes both rim and disc brake options. You need more molds, more R&D, more inventory, etc. Bike makers aren't exactly making a killing selling road bikes so can you blame them for wanting to consolidate towards a single standard?

I'm sure there will be plenty of independent (and Chinese) shops out there that will continue to make lovely rim brake bikes for the foreseeable future.
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MoPho
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Re: Some manufacturers forcing pros onto disk brakes for the 2019 season

Post by MoPho »

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 6:07 am
Methodical wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:42 am

Oh, I see he has a reputation around here.

I'm very pro-disc, so I have my opinions on him. I honestly don't know how others view Lewn777's behavior. He thinks if he lies enough, people will believe him. He will challenge facts like how my Emonda SLR Disc weighs 6.4kg hoping ignorance prevails. Watch any thread...he's so devoid of original thought, he'll latch onto a key point someone else makes, and then repeat it ad nauseum. Currently it's the theme of American capitalism/profiteering/marketing being responsible for the "fake" popularity of disc road bikes.
You forgot the best part, after all his repeated lies, exaggerations, and insults towards those who have bought disc bikes, he then pretends to be the victim and that he is the one being attacked for his opinion. He is the Donald Trump of bike forums :lol:

iheartbianchi
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Re: Some manufacturers forcing pros onto disk brakes for the 2019 season

Post by iheartbianchi »

MoPho wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 6:24 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 6:07 am
Methodical wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:42 am

Oh, I see he has a reputation around here.

I'm very pro-disc, so I have my opinions on him. I honestly don't know how others view Lewn777's behavior. He thinks if he lies enough, people will believe him. He will challenge facts like how my Emonda SLR Disc weighs 6.4kg hoping ignorance prevails. Watch any thread...he's so devoid of original thought, he'll latch onto a key point someone else makes, and then repeat it ad nauseum. Currently it's the theme of American capitalism/profiteering/marketing being responsible for the "fake" popularity of disc road bikes.
You forgot the best part, after all his repeated lies, exaggerations, and insults towards those who have bought disc bikes, he then pretends to be the victim and that he is the one being attacked for his opinion. He is the Donald Trump of bike forums :lol:
Now let's not bring politics into this...I happen to like Donald Trump a lot more than his predecessor!
Bianchi Oltre XR4
Celeste Matte
Campy SR 11spd mechanical
Bora Ultra 50 tubs
Viseon 5D / stock bits and parts

Bianchi Specialissima Pantani Edition
Campy SR / Chorus 11spd mechanical
Fulcrum Racing Speed 35 tubs
FSA / Deda bits and parts

MoPho
Posts: 560
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:48 pm
Location: NorCal

Re: Some manufacturers forcing pros onto disk brakes for the 2019 season

Post by MoPho »

iheartbianchi wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 6:36 am


Now let's not bring politics into this...I happen to like Donald Trump a lot more than his predecessor!
I was referring to behaviour, nothing to do with politics.



.

jlok
Posts: 1164
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Re: Some manufacturers forcing pros onto disk brakes for the 2019 season

Post by jlok »

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 6:07 am
Methodical wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:42 am

Oh, I see he has a reputation around here.

I'm very pro-disc, so I have my opinions on him. I honestly don't know how others view Lewn777's behavior. He thinks if he lies enough, people will believe him. He will challenge facts like how my Emonda SLR Disc weighs 6.4kg hoping ignorance prevails. Watch any thread...he's so devoid of original thought, he'll latch onto a key point someone else makes, and then repeat it ad nauseum. Currently it's the theme of American capitalism/profiteering/marketing being responsible for the "fake" popularity of disc road bikes.
Used to hate his misleading posts but I have no feeling about him. Plus, there's a great Ignore List feature. Sadly it's not coverying quotes by other users.

In fact, I no longer participate in any disc brake vs everything else post as there's no longer constuctive topic to learn, only to seeing people flaming each other. It's fun, but wastes time.

What I'd like to see is how to WW a bike, no matter it's disc brake or not.
Litespeed T1sl Disc / BMC TM02 < Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

TobinHatesYou
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Re: Some manufacturers forcing pros onto disk brakes for the 2019 season

Post by TobinHatesYou »

I could ignore him, but then he'd be influencing others without being called out on his bullshit.

jlok
Posts: 1164
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

Re: Some manufacturers forcing pros onto disk brakes for the 2019 season

Post by jlok »

Yep, I uds it's hard not to response and "correct" his misleading info as that would affect the others, me too thinking the same in the past.

But I think maybe you are leading the pack for too long. Maybe it's a good idea to sit back for a while and let some fellow members doing the pull.
Litespeed T1sl Disc / BMC TM02 < Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

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