Some manufacturers forcing pros onto disk brakes for the 2019 season

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Jugi
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by Jugi

fxx wrote:
Jugi wrote:Hydraulic rim brakes were available at least from SRAM (and from Magura for TT application) but they did not see much interest from pros or the rest. IMO simplicity of installation, maintenance and adjustment is the major benefit of mechanical rim brakes. Introduce hydraulics into the equation and much of that simplicity goes out the window.
Then how come hydro disc brakes do not suffer from that image? They possess all the negatives you mentioned with a bigger weight penalty.

Wrong timing for hydro rim brakes? Or not enough marketing push?

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Well, hydraulic rim brakes were the last of all these variants to be developed. Bicycle disc brakes have been around for quite a while, just adapted to road cycling during this decade. Mechanical rim brakes have been around for ages. Both systems have their use cases and both have benefits over the other. Hydraulic rim brakes literally solved a problem no one had. Want simplicity and lighter weight, go for mechanical rim brakes. Want very good modulation and dependability in all conditions, go for hydraulic disc brakes.

I haven't tried hydraulic rim brakes, but I'm quite sure they don't offer the same modulation benefits as disc brakes, because rim's brake surfaces and rim brake pads have a considerable effect in the overall performance.

by Weenie


TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

There was a brief moment in the late 90s when Magura's hydro rim brakes were top spec on MTBs. Disc brakes quickly dethroned them.

fxx
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by fxx

Jugi wrote:
fxx wrote:
Jugi wrote:Hydraulic rim brakes were available at least from SRAM (and from Magura for TT application) but they did not see much interest from pros or the rest. IMO simplicity of installation, maintenance and adjustment is the major benefit of mechanical rim brakes. Introduce hydraulics into the equation and much of that simplicity goes out the window.
Then how come hydro disc brakes do not suffer from that image? They possess all the negatives you mentioned with a bigger weight penalty.

Wrong timing for hydro rim brakes? Or not enough marketing push?

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
Well, hydraulic rim brakes were the last of all these variants to be developed. Bicycle disc brakes have been around for quite a while, just adapted to road cycling during this decade. Mechanical rim brakes have been around for ages. Both systems have their use cases and both have benefits over the other. Hydraulic rim brakes literally solved a problem no one had. Want simplicity and lighter weight, go for mechanical rim brakes. Want very good modulation and dependability in all conditions, go for hydraulic disc brakes.

I haven't tried hydraulic rim brakes, but I'm quite sure they don't offer the same modulation benefits as disc brakes, because rim's brake surfaces and rim brake pads have a considerable effect in the overall performance.
The only thing I can think off where hydro disc brakes absolutely trumps hydro rim brakes is wet weather braking and maybe that's why hydro rim brakes never took off.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 12:53 am
There was a brief moment in the late 90s when Magura's hydro rim brakes were top spec on MTBs. Disc brakes quickly dethroned them.
Hmmm... were you even riding bicycles in the 90's, I mean other than a tricycle.
The whole hydro rim brakes deserves a revisit, if for no other reason than to ponder it as another braking option. I was advocating for this option years ago. It's a nobrainer that hydro discs replaced hydro rim brakes in the mountain bike world. When your rims are buried in mud a good percentage (or any percentage) of the time it only makes sense. So, no one questions why discs are more appropriate for mountain bikes, that's a given, they are. But road, here's where it gets more interesting, especially at the highest level of road racing bicycles where weight and simplicity are king.

First let's clear up the history a bit, by going back to the late 80's. Magura had hdyro rim brakes quite successfully established in the mountain bike world. So, why not the road bike world. They actually came out with the HS77 hydraulic rim brakes for road bikes. It was just very bad timing back then. Why?... well guess what else was introduced around the same time.... integrated shift/brake levers. And that, was a no brainer in the road world... there was no delay in adpoting STI/Ergo shift levers... that change happened as soon as people could afford to make the switch. Despite what some people like to say about how adoption of this technology was slow (trying to compare it to the road disc brake scenario), it wasn't. Again, a no brainer... give me shifting and braking all in the same place, and no one mourned the death of downtube shifters for anything but nostalgic reasons. But where did that leave the budding hydro rim brakes that Magura just introduced. Well, without being able to integrate the shifting with braking, meaning you would still have to use downtube shifters, the Magura hydro rim brakes for road just never even got off the ground. End of story.

But damn... it wasn't a bad idea. Here's my own personal account of hydraulic rim brakes. I was doing a fair amount of loaded self contained bike touring back then, and had a custom touring bike built for me. It was very specific to loaded touring... and had mountain bike rear spaciing (135mm), long 44cm chainstays so my heels wouldn't hit my paniers etc. It was a touring bike to end all touring bikes back then... here it is in New Zealand, with Mount Cook in the backdrop...
Image

Now, that bike originally had cable pull cantilevers on it, and it was during a trip from Lands End to John O'Groats (why not), that I found myself loaded up and heading down a very very steep section of road to a little town on the coast that I just thought I should go to (cuz why not). I really was afraid of a brake cable snapping at that point, and the pressure I had to exert by squeezing the brake levers with all that weight was a lot, while at the same time trying not to apply so much pressure that my tires would lose it on the damp roads. That was the moment that made me consider hydraulics in the first place. Leaving that town on the coast I was treated to a 30% uphill grade (accoring to the warning sign posted), and while I thought I might make it, some chugging car was coming up buring the clutch and I had to stop to let it go by. Needless to say I couldn't get started again on that grade with all that weight on the super narrow lane so ended up pushing to the top. All that is just preamble for what happened when I returned home about a month or so later.

Finding myself in a bike shop, I noticed a set of Magura HS77 levers collecting dust and thought... why not throw those on my touring bike along with the mountain calipers on the bosses and at least do away with the brake cables. I didn't care about the integrated shifting as I had reliable bar end shifters which were easy to service and fix in the event of a mishap on the road. So that's what I did. Hydrualic rim brakes on my touring bike. And this touring bike saw a lot of duty in the French Alps, Swiss Alps, Germany, Austria, West Coast of America, South Island of New Zealand, and all through the UK, among other shorter trips. The hydraulic brakes worked great... light action at the hands, and great braking.
Here's the setup... HS77 levers...
Image

And the rather cumbersome mounatin bike (at the time) calipers... but boy did they work...
Image

People shouldn't confuse the action of hydraulics with the action of the brakes themselves. Whether the bike is being stopped at the rim, or a rotor down by the hub, hydraulics makes that process very easy. And it is true, that a rim is in fact a huge disc in itself. So, if they say you need 160mm rotors over 140mm for the road, then it seems a no brainer that the 622m or whatever it is of a big road wheel would be the ultimate disc.

So... fast forward to the last decade or so.... why not now? The original problem of integrating shifting with hydraulics has been overcome by all three of the major manufacturers. Why not just slap on a set of relatively lightweight (unlike the mountain monstrosities I have on the touring bike) calipers on existing road bikes and voila... hydro rim brakes. No need to beef up forks and stays to account for the assymetric forces of disc braking on only one side of the hub. No need to add spokes to the wheels (the extra reinforcement is required due to all the braking action at the hub rather than the rim, and the resulting transfer of force through the spokes to the rim). No need to widen the rear dropouts, or alter existing chainlines, etc. etc., Basically, no need to essentially redesign the road frame from the ground up. Basically, no need to turn the road bike into a mountain bike. It's beautiful the way it was. Why uglify it.

Anyway, such a simple solution might have been quite nice for those that wanted the light action of hydraulics, but what would that do for the ultimate business model. Well, not much really. Whereas by adding mountain bike discs to road bikes... well now there's a business model that pays off. No need for the development and production of different braking technologies for both road and mountain, so there's a huge cost savings right there. The manufacturers just needed to convince everyone that discs are the only way forward, for everyone! Even when maybe the simple, effective rim brake may still be the best option for some disciplines... namely... that damn stubborn pro peloton. Why can't they just jump on board so the manufacturers don't have to explain why at the very highest level of road racing, the lowly rim brake is still the brake of choice. Damn those pros.

Anyway, just something to think about... hydro rim brakes are a very valid option, especially now that we have integrated shifting and hydraulics and rim braking is very very good. I'm going to use Campagnolo Bora as my gold standard, because I realize there are some very poor rim braking options out there as well. But if Campagnolo can make such a superb rim brake/pad combo, I'm sure others could too if they tried. Now, for economic reasons, there's little chance in hell that the manufacturers would get behind this while the push to discs is almost complete (damn those pros with their fancy light efficent bikes that they don't want to give up). At least not right now. Perhaps when they've got everyone switched over to discs, and new sales have died, and they need something to refresh the industry once again, then someone will pop up out of nowhere with this novel new idea, except it's not new. But don't hold your breath. Of course, the proper marketing can change everything.

Anyway, not trying to convince anyone that discs are bad, and rim brakes are good, but I do believe that there are disciplines where each has very distinct advantages.

Happy Mothers Day everyone!
Last edited by Calnago on Sun May 12, 2019 7:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

No, Calnago, I was riding bicycles in the 80s, but nice random ad hom as usual.

Anyway you said it yourself, the road version of Magura’s hydro rim never enjoyed much success because of STI. I said the MTB hardware was briefly quite popular in the 90s. Are you going to refute that?

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Did it have two wheels or three?
Yes, for sure the reason back then for failure of the Magura hydro rim brake was due to the fact they couldn't integrate it with shifting, so end of story, then. But also there was the weight issue, just as there is today. But today, shifting and hydraulics in the same lever are not only possible, every manufacturer has got it. But I'm just repeating what I already said in my post. It's just that the reasons not to go down that route today are more economic (from the manufacturers perspective) than technical.
Not refuting that when discs came on board for the mountain bike world, it was a no brainer... I said as much in my post. I would dump rim brakes on mountain bikes too as soon as I had a disc option. I thought you could get that from my post, perhaps I wasn't clear enough. But again, road bikes aren't mountatin bikes, although they are getting closer and closer these days. That's all.
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C36
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by C36

Just for the sake of completeness (and Calnago has been both faster and a lot more detailed that I would have been...) Actually Esco tried to integrated the speed selection to the hydro brakes, the Swiss Post team ran them on their Time frames in the late 90s I would say (so 5-6 years after the Sti-ergopower were well in use). They moved the frame levers at the top of the brakes... so so from an integration standpoint...
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kgt
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by kgt

Nice story! It is interesting how many ideas and technologies have been introduced but how few actually survived and evolved.
I always admired those romantic-heroic efforts to innovate and offer something better without expecting to get your money back though huge sales and aggressive marketing.

Methodical
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by Methodical

Lewn777 wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:04 am
So Specialized/Merida and Canyon are forcing their pro riders on to disk brakes for 2019, as they are not providing their riders with any choice and using their contracts to enforce it.
This 'evolution' in bike technology that's so 'needed' by riders has to be forced through with muscle like fascism? Seems like bs. :|

I'm not against disk brakes if you want them. It seems some manufacturers are against choice. Just a repeat of the 26 inch to 27.5 inch mountain bike nonsense. Let the market decide not corporations.
The market can be decided by consumers as in the past with other components; we can either purchase or not purchase disc bikes. As it stands now, there are many that are going with disc bikes (see a lot on local group rides). I'm still a rim brake guy and I had to buy a frame set in order to get the rim brake version of the Trek Emonda. I am not against disc, just waiting for the manufacturers to lighten the load of them, which I'm pretty sure will happen over time. A disc bike is probably inevitable at some point in the future. If you can't beat them, join them.
"Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark, professionals built the Titanic"

'20 Emonda SLR (Rage Red) - 6.27kg (6.04kg;no pedals)
'12 Madone (Black) - 6.96kg (6.73kg;no pedals)
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Lewn777
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by Lewn777

Methodical wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 9:07 am
Lewn777 wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:04 am
So Specialized/Merida and Canyon are forcing their pro riders on to disk brakes for 2019, as they are not providing their riders with any choice and using their contracts to enforce it.
This 'evolution' in bike technology that's so 'needed' by riders has to be forced through with muscle like fascism? Seems like bs. :|

I'm not against disk brakes if you want them. It seems some manufacturers are against choice. Just a repeat of the 26 inch to 27.5 inch mountain bike nonsense. Let the market decide not corporations.
The market can be decided by consumers as in the past with other components; we can either purchase or not purchase disc bikes. As it stands now, there are many that are going with disc bikes (see a lot on local group rides). I'm still a rim brake guy and I had to buy a frame set in order to get the rim brake version of the Trek Emonda. I am not against disc, just waiting for the manufacturers to lighten the load of them, which I'm pretty sure will happen over time. A disc bike is probably inevitable at some point in the future. If you can't beat them, join them.
Use disk brakes for a year and do over 10,000kms and live with them. Then try a day or two on direct mount brakes a treated alloy surface like DT Swiss Oxic or Campagnolo Shamal Mille and tell me that disk brakes are really worth all the extra weight and hassle. Fact is most people buying them have no clue, they are just being manipulated into buying what's new and shiny.

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kgt
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by kgt

+1
IMHO disc brakes on road bikes try to solve a problem that does not exist. Don't you feel safe enough riding carbon wheels and rim brakes? You can always have a second pair of good old, aluminum wheels. Problem solved. You have all the power and modulation you need.

Methodical
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by Methodical

Lewn777 wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 12:20 pm
Methodical wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 9:07 am
Lewn777 wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:04 am
So Specialized/Merida and Canyon are forcing their pro riders on to disk brakes for 2019, as they are not providing their riders with any choice and using their contracts to enforce it.
This 'evolution' in bike technology that's so 'needed' by riders has to be forced through with muscle like fascism? Seems like bs. :|

I'm not against disk brakes if you want them. It seems some manufacturers are against choice. Just a repeat of the 26 inch to 27.5 inch mountain bike nonsense. Let the market decide not corporations.
The market can be decided by consumers as in the past with other components; we can either purchase or not purchase disc bikes. As it stands now, there are many that are going with disc bikes (see a lot on local group rides). I'm still a rim brake guy and I had to buy a frame set in order to get the rim brake version of the Trek Emonda. I am not against disc, just waiting for the manufacturers to lighten the load of them, which I'm pretty sure will happen over time. A disc bike is probably inevitable at some point in the future. If you can't beat them, join them.
Use disk brakes for a year and do over 10,000kms and live with them. Then try a day or two on direct mount brakes a treated alloy surface like DT Swiss Oxic or Campagnolo Shamal Mille and tell me that disk brakes are really worth all the extra weight and hassle. Fact is most people buying them have no clue, they are just being manipulated into buying what's new and shiny.
I'm not arguing with you. Like I said, I am still a rim brake guy. I love my disc brake on my MB though and would have it no other way.
"Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark, professionals built the Titanic"

'20 Emonda SLR (Rage Red) - 6.27kg (6.04kg;no pedals)
'12 Madone (Black) - 6.96kg (6.73kg;no pedals)
Fujee Espree (Maroon) - 11.02kg

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Lewn777
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by Lewn777

Methodical wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:41 pm
Lewn777 wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 12:20 pm
Methodical wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 9:07 am
Lewn777 wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:04 am
So Specialized/Merida and Canyon are forcing their pro riders on to disk brakes for 2019, as they are not providing their riders with any choice and using their contracts to enforce it.
This 'evolution' in bike technology that's so 'needed' by riders has to be forced through with muscle like fascism? Seems like bs. :|

I'm not against disk brakes if you want them. It seems some manufacturers are against choice. Just a repeat of the 26 inch to 27.5 inch mountain bike nonsense. Let the market decide not corporations.
The market can be decided by consumers as in the past with other components; we can either purchase or not purchase disc bikes. As it stands now, there are many that are going with disc bikes (see a lot on local group rides). I'm still a rim brake guy and I had to buy a frame set in order to get the rim brake version of the Trek Emonda. I am not against disc, just waiting for the manufacturers to lighten the load of them, which I'm pretty sure will happen over time. A disc bike is probably inevitable at some point in the future. If you can't beat them, join them.
Use disk brakes for a year and do over 10,000kms and live with them. Then try a day or two on direct mount brakes a treated alloy surface like DT Swiss Oxic or Campagnolo Shamal Mille and tell me that disk brakes are really worth all the extra weight and hassle. Fact is most people buying them have no clue, they are just being manipulated into buying what's new and shiny.
I'm not arguing with you. Like I said, I am still a rim brake guy. I love my disc brake on my MB though and would have it no other way.
Same, I've got four mountain bikes in two countries all with disk brakes. It's only the childrens mountain bike with Avid BB7 mech brakes where I would be inclined maybe to feel that V-brakes might be equal. I'd never dream of telling anyone with a CX, gravel, Mountain bike etc that they should buy anything else, disk brakes are perfect for those applications.

It's this 'many that are going with disc bikes' and 'If you can't beat them, join them' are sentiments of the person sleepwalking into a disaster. You openly prefer rim brakes on a road bike, but at the same time you'll capitulate and roll over to allow disk brakes to take over the market because you are influenced by what other people are riding and marketing. :roll:

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

kgt wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 2:58 pm
+1
IMHO disc brakes on road bikes try to solve a problem that does not exist. Don't you feel safe enough riding carbon wheels and rim brakes? You can always have a second pair of good old, aluminum wheels. Problem solved. You have all the power and modulation you need.

Or you race in the rain or some of your road races have gravel sections. I'm not doing Bariani, Chico/Paskenta, Regalado, etc. on alloy rims.

by Weenie


ND4SPD
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by ND4SPD

Calnago wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 7:28 pm
People shouldn't confuse the action of hydraulics with the action of the brakes themselves. Whether the bike is being stopped at the rim, or a rotor down by the hub, hydraulics makes that process very easy. And it is true, that a rim is in fact a huge disc in itself. So, if they say you need 160mm rotors over 140mm for the road, then it seems a no brainer that the 622m or whatever it is of a big road wheel would be the ultimate disc.
Great post, but I have to correct you here.

28 wheels are 635 mm. However, not the whole 635 mm is "disc". With brake pads which are let's say 70mm in length and 15 mm in width, that "disc surface" is in fact much, much smaller. With real discs, which are, let's say 160 mm, you get much bigger brake pads and therefore much bigger brake pad surface area... And there is more, it's not just the diameter of the disc, thickness of the disc is also very important for thermal efficiency and heat dissipation. You also have very different compounds, most compounds for rim brakes are some kind of rubber or cork, and for disc brakes most of them have some metal in them, which again gives you more thermal efficiency, and better contact in the rain vs. rubber and metal or carbon in rim brakes. That paired with the holes and slots in discs, which are not only for weight reduction, gives you much better braking in wet conditions.

In dry weather in a single stop, there is not that much of a difference:


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