Why has Xert got threshold and 1 hour power beside each other and how are they being calculated?

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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Shrike
Posts: 1603
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:08 pm

by Shrike

So back trialing Xert again as I've got a new power meter. I'm not getting why threshold and one hour power are on my main page beside each other. They're usually quite close the past few weeks, 3 to 1 watt currently apart.

I've noticed my FTP creeping up very slightly, and I noticed a couple of breakthroughs - one I noticed just now was from a ride 4 days ago, called a bronze breakthrough. I'm not really seeing what the breakthrough is though when I check the activity. I can see the green breakthrough icon on the power chart but failing at why this is a breakthrough. My Strava power curve doesn't show I did any new best efforts that ride..

If I'n not doing any new best power efforts on my power curve on strava then how is Xert increasing my FTP and one hour power number? :shock:

TheRich
Posts: 350
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:36 am

by TheRich

You get a breakthrough when you exceed your maximum power available.

by Weenie


jlok
Posts: 1027
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

When you logged in to Xertonline.com front page, TP is always shown. The figure beside TP is shown according to your chosen Athlete Type in Account Settings.

Breakthrough as TheRich has suggested, is because your power curve (that should be a 5-sec avg) crossed the MPA curve. That means the system considers your breakthrough effort should be based on a better Signature than the one predicted right before the start of the ride. Therefore, the system will analyze again and come up with a new Fitness Signature based on your effort. Bronze BT means one of the three parameters of your Signature has improved.

Check out the Choosing Your Athlete Type session for more detail about it.
http://baronbiosys.com/support-learn/

After some basic reading, go to Xert User Group to ask questions.
https://m.facebook.com/groups/1809806109233531

Be sure to check out the figures of MVdP and his great victory (link in the comments)
https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1 ... 1287765674

Further reading about Critical Power.
http://www.goldencheetah.org/#section-science

If you are a full subscriber (highly recommend to pay for 1 month to try), these Garmin CIQ Datafields are very useful during the ride.
https://apps.garmin.com/en-US/search?q= ... 0&count=30
Litespeed T1sl Disc / BMC TM02 < Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

Shrike
Posts: 1603
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:08 pm

by Shrike

I have a fair idea about most of that, read all about Xert before, but now I'm paying more attention to it, something isn't clicking.

I have been doing anything recently that would give Xert a higher threshold reading, yet it's increasing my threshold power and one hour power almost daily.

What is this based on? Is it looking at my training overall and going, yeah this guy's getting fitter, I bet his threshold power and one hour power is up?

Why are one hour power and threshold different, yet so similar, like only 1watt of each other? Looks like the calculation is basically the same then and a bit pointless? Or do some people have largely different one hour power and threshold numbers on Xert?

I selected TT yes, so I know that's why I have one hour power there, I'm just not seeing the point of it if it's basically the same as the threshold number.

TheRich
Posts: 350
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:36 am

by TheRich

During my free trial, Xert seemed overly optimistic about my estimated power values like FTP, one and two hour power.

A charitable theory is that they're theoretical, not taking mental toughness into account. A less charitable theory is that part of the draw of Xert is the encouraging feedback and numbers.

AJS914
Posts: 3359
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

Aren't 1 hour power and theshold supposed to be exactly the same?

TheRich
Posts: 350
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:36 am

by TheRich

AJS914 wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 6:56 pm
Aren't 1 hour power and theshold supposed to be exactly the same?
No, at least not for the vast majority of people.

Maybe I shouldn't have said one hour, but my two hour power on Xert was about what I'd expect to do for one hour.

Edit: It would overestimate my FTP, yet give me "breakthroughs" when I would do shorter intervals based on a lower FTP. The combination of those two things made me a little sceptical, but their useage of "Lower Threshold Power" still interests me...as does the positive feedback.

jlok
Posts: 1027
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

I think you will get answers from the Xert User Group at fb. There are lots of wise persons including the founder of Xertonline.com. He may answer your questions.

The interesting part is the prediction of your Above TP work capacity (HIE in Xert, FRC in WKO, W' in GC), which is "new" to FTP users. Try to figure it out and you will understand your capability more and Why people having the same FTP would sprint differently. And finally the relationship between HIE and LTP.
Litespeed T1sl Disc / BMC TM02 < Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

robertbb
Posts: 971
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

by robertbb

If only we weren't forced to use a particular bicycle head unit to make use of the HIE/FRC/W' concept.

I kind of like what Sufferfest is doing with the 4DP. It seems like a good half-way point between relying on a simple FTP based system and something more model-driven like HIE/FRC/W'. Again though, the problem is that head units don't have smarts beyond a single FTP number with which to calculate traditional power zones.

I've been hoping the new Stages head units would address all of this but they've been delayed for so long now it's almost vapourware.

jlok
Posts: 1027
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

robertbb wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 1:54 am
If only we weren't forced to use a particular bicycle head unit to make use of the HIE/FRC/W' concept.

I kind of like what Sufferfest is doing with the 4DP. It seems like a good half-way point between relying on a simple FTP based system and something more model-driven like HIE/FRC/W'. Again though, the problem is that head units don't have smarts beyond a single FTP number with which to calculate traditional power zones.

I've been hoping the new Stages head units would address all of this but they've been delayed for so long now it's almost vapourware.
You don't need any head unit to do post-ride analysis. If you want Xert Garmin CIQ datafield then yes you need a relatively new gen from 520/820/1000 series.... but when people are buying N+1 bikes and bora wheels, the price is too small to pay for.

If you insist, you may pickup a relatively cheap and small phone 2nd hand like Galaxy S7 (splashproof) and utilize the Xert Mobile app, put it on your bike, do some trainer rides (or outdoor if you are confident in the mounting). The app could function as trainer app as well as a fully functional bike computer when combining the ANT+ of S7.

The HIE concept is quite easy to understand. There's a finite amount of capacity (like a battery) to do work above (F)TP. Once it's depleted it got to be recovered/recharged (stop completely or work below TP). HIE/FRC/W' is just there to visualize how much juice you still got at a particular time in your ride. Xert does one step further by bring it to your bike computer. It's very good for pacing.

Again, you are stongly recommended to just reading the discussions in Xert fb group, even tho you don't believe in such thing. Lot's of stuff to learn there.
Litespeed T1sl Disc / BMC TM02 < Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

jlok
Posts: 1027
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

Two important reads to understand Xert.

The Science: Metabolic Pathways and How They Affect Your Riding and Racing
http://baronbiosys.com/the-science-meta ... nd-racing/

The Science: The Physiology Behind Focus and Strain, and How To Train The Metabolic Pathways
http://baronbiosys.com/the-science-the- ... -pathways/
Litespeed T1sl Disc / BMC TM02 < Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

by Weenie


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