Odds that we see disc brake only bikes go back to having rim offerings?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
TobinHatesYou
Posts: 3604
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Lewn777 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:34 am

If rim brake bike wins cycle race = Means nothing.
Disk brake bike wins race = Meaningful proof of superiority.

It is what it is for marketing purposes. Not a single brand is going to create ad-copy lauding a rim-brake TdF win. It wasn't done in 2018 or 2017...it's not going to be done in 2019.

Jugi
Posts: 459
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:10 am

by Jugi

Could somebody point me into the direction of a major manufacturer's marketing piece revolving around a road race win, where the presence of disc brakes is underlined as being the decisive factor?

by Weenie


TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Jugi wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:47 am
Could somebody point me into the direction of a major manufacturer's marketing piece revolving around a road race win, where the presence of disc brakes is underlined as being the decisive factor?

Nobody has claimed that disc-brakes will be underlined as a deciding factor if/when it takes GC at the TdF or another grand tour. When Kittel won a sprint for Quickstep though, the first time a disc bike had ever one a stage, it did generate media buzz. If a disc bike does win the whole thing, you can bet the brand of consequence and the media will announce that disc has finally arrived.

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wheelsONfire
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Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

It's a - dah moment!
It's no wonder the (disc only) manufacturers cling to, "ride the wave of marketing"!
Can you imagine when aero is the new king, and it's disc or rim or both.
Do you see the paradox when it comes to aero?
It's about cost. Cost to develop, not just two platforms which are vastly different when it comes to the design of the frame and frame layout (and forks ofcourse).
They would also risk a setback of a massive amount of bikes / framesets which they have no sales for.
These would need to go on discount which makes the cost ratio a killer for sales.
Imagine the rim brake frameset/ bike at 25-50% discount. This would steer some potential buyers to rim brake framsets/ bikes, which again would mean - 1 sale for a disc brake version. No profit, perhaps the opposite is a fact.
My guess is that manufacturers actually don't like this.
They are more or less forced (due to economics) to take a stand.
Again, this does not translate into a fact that the are all for disc brakes.

This applies to wheelset sales to. 12*142 + 12mm through axle and the old QR versions.
Rims with brake track or not, do they need to manufacture disc only and rim versions to.
Again, cost is a force.

Ask yourselves, who/ whom are the force dictating the dual faced future?
You all know it already....
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=156137
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D

fxx
Posts: 121
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:10 pm

by fxx

wheelsONfire wrote:It's a - dah moment!
It's no wonder the (disc only) manufacturers cling to, "ride the wave of marketing"!
Can you imagine when aero is the new king, and it's disc or rim or both.
Do you see the paradox when it comes to aero?
It's about cost. Cost to develop, not just two platforms which are vastly different when it comes to the design of the frame and frame layout (and forks ofcourse).
They would also risk a setback of a massive amount of bikes / framesets which they have no sales for.
These would need to go on discount which makes the cost ratio a killer for sales.
Imagine the rim brake frameset/ bike at 25-50% discount. This would steer some potential buyers to rim brake framsets/ bikes, which again would mean - 1 sale for a disc brake version. No profit, perhaps the opposite is a fact.
My guess is that manufacturers actually don't like this.
They are more or less forced (due to economics) to take a stand.
Again, this does not translate into a fact that the are all for disc brakes.

This applies to wheelset sales to. 12*142 + 12mm through axle and the old QR versions.
Rims with brake track or not, do they need to manufacture disc only and rim versions to.
Again, cost is a force.

Ask yourselves, who/ whom are the force dictating the dual faced future?
You all know it already....
I think the market is enough to support 2 formats.

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cunn1n9
Posts: 138
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:24 am

by cunn1n9

I find the above arguments tiresome. Here is my experience.

I own the following bikes:
1. Cervelo R5ca DA 9100 mechanical
2. Pinarello F8 DA9000 DI2
3. Factor O2 Disc DA9100 DI2

I think most people would say that there is a potential disadvantage to disc going up hill and a potential disadvantage to disc going downhill.

What I have found is as follows:
- uphill my times are about the same. I set 2 PB’s (by a small amount) on the disc bike yesterday on climbs in the 5-10 min range. I set my second fastest time on the disc bike on a climb of 45mins going up 800 vertical metres. However it’s not a direct comparison as it wasn’t the same day etc etc.
Now i think for me that all I can say is that it’s a wash. The Factor is very slightly (100g) heavier than the F8 and about 400g heavier than the R5ca. Unless I did a controlled experiment on the same day and lucked the same wind conditions on both attempts it is hard to know for sure if the extra weight makes any difference. As I’m not racing for fame, fortune and glory for me I don’t think it makes much difference going up.
- downhill. This is interesting. I have set quite a few PB’s going down the hill on the disc bike. However I do not think it was because of the discs. Do they have more power? Yes. Do they have better modulation? Yes. Do they feel better? Yes. Do they make noises like my carbon clinchers when they get hot? No. The thing is the better braking is not really helping improve descending speed as all you are doing is feathering the brakes mostly and the power of the rim brake is perfectly fine for hairpins etc. BUT it is more enjoyable to use the disc brakes on the descent. Now the reason I think I am faster downhill on the disc bike is because I have 28mm rubber on it and with lower pressure the grip and the absorption of bumps etc is much better. This is the key. On my R5 I can only run 23mm and on the F8 only 25mm. I can go fast downhill on these but the apparent safety margin on the 28mm tyres is quite obvious. If you could fit 28mm on a rim bike I see no difference to descending speed. The pros times downhill on disc and rim are basically the same which proves this.

In terms of agility the Factor O2 feels like the rim bikes. It has short chainstays (405mm) and is very agile even more than the R5. The F8 has less aggressive fork angle so feels more composed and less snappy.

So do I prefer disc or rim? It’s a wash. Given that I will go forward with disc as there is no disadvantage but there is:
- better brake feel
- in the wet it will be much better
- ability to hide all cables so looks very sleek (eg Venge, s5, etc)
- no wear of brake track so wheels last forever
- can use cheaper wheels because I don’t need to pay Zipp or Enve to engineer a special carbon/resin compound that doesn’t warp. This is a big one.
- easier to clean. No brake dust or dirt all over the calipers
- can fit big tyres - if you want. You should try as it is an eye opener for me.

Negatives?
- new purchases - but this is fun
- learn new skill - bleeding brake lines
- harder to adjust the brakes. I have figured this out now and it’s not too bad

Anyway - please everyone calm down. Ride what you prefer and let others do the same.

For those who fear that rim brakes will become extinct I think in the end (in maybe 10-20 years) maybe they will. However can bike frames really be improved much from here? My R5ca was built in 2011. It is still among the lightest frames and it’s 8 years old. It is still as stiff as anything as well. As for aero the rim brake version of the aero bikes are as good and in most cases still slightly faster than the disc aero bikes. So that’s a wash too. So if you don’t want to change to disc you’re not loosing anything and you can buy a runout model or second hand bargain that will still be very fast and light and will last until you die!

Peace.



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Lewn777
Posts: 725
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:35 am

by Lewn777

wheelsONfire wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:49 am
It's a - dah moment!
It's no wonder the (disc only) manufacturers cling to, "ride the wave of marketing"!
Can you imagine when aero is the new king, and it's disc or rim or both.
Do you see the paradox when it comes to aero?
It's about cost. Cost to develop, not just two platforms which are vastly different when it comes to the design of the frame and frame layout (and forks ofcourse).
They would also risk a setback of a massive amount of bikes / framesets which they have no sales for.
These would need to go on discount which makes the cost ratio a killer for sales.
Imagine the rim brake frameset/ bike at 25-50% discount. This would steer some potential buyers to rim brake framsets/ bikes, which again would mean - 1 sale for a disc brake version. No profit, perhaps the opposite is a fact.
My guess is that manufacturers actually don't like this.
They are more or less forced (due to economics) to take a stand.
Again, this does not translate into a fact that the are all for disc brakes.

This applies to wheelset sales to. 12*142 + 12mm through axle and the old QR versions.
Rims with brake track or not, do they need to manufacture disc only and rim versions to.
Again, cost is a force.

Ask yourselves, who/ whom are the force dictating the dual faced future?
You all know it already....
Are you joking? :lol: :lol: :lol:
The bike manufacturers are dreaming up new kinds of bicycle like gravel bikes, aero bikes and Roubaix bikes so they can sell more bikes. They also have an army of different Fat and thinner tire MTBs with various wheel diameters. Then you've got kids bike for three or four different age groups, touring bikes, BMX bikes, folding bikes etc etc. I hardly think it's economic hardship for them to figure out the proportion of the market that like rim bikes and keep selling them - in other words to be a bike manufacturer. They could sell the disk brake version as an 'all-weather descending and climbing bike' but call the rim bike the 'KOM smasher and hill climb racer'.

Personally I think the marketing dept are missing a trick. They could also have the Strade Bianchi bike and the aero gravel bike, both with super short travel lock out, becuase you know the right tires and double wrap bar tape just don't cost enough.

The only 'problem' with marketing the rim brake bike is that nearly everyone's already got one. :roll:

robeambro
Posts: 527
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

fxx wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:18 am
wheelsONfire wrote:It's a - dah moment!
It's no wonder the (disc only) manufacturers cling to, "ride the wave of marketing"!
Can you imagine when aero is the new king, and it's disc or rim or both.
Do you see the paradox when it comes to aero?
It's about cost. Cost to develop, not just two platforms which are vastly different when it comes to the design of the frame and frame layout (and forks ofcourse).
They would also risk a setback of a massive amount of bikes / framesets which they have no sales for.
These would need to go on discount which makes the cost ratio a killer for sales.
Imagine the rim brake frameset/ bike at 25-50% discount. This would steer some potential buyers to rim brake framsets/ bikes, which again would mean - 1 sale for a disc brake version. No profit, perhaps the opposite is a fact.
My guess is that manufacturers actually don't like this.
They are more or less forced (due to economics) to take a stand.
Again, this does not translate into a fact that the are all for disc brakes.

This applies to wheelset sales to. 12*142 + 12mm through axle and the old QR versions.
Rims with brake track or not, do they need to manufacture disc only and rim versions to.
Again, cost is a force.

Ask yourselves, who/ whom are the force dictating the dual faced future?
You all know it already....
I think the market is enough to support 2 formats.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
You didn’t read the post you quoted, did you? The size of the market is irrelevant.

It’s about COST.

If a manufacturer can support the same market demand with a much lower cost (due to only developing Disc, or only developing rim, rather than both options), they will prefer to do so, as it maximises profit for them.

devonbiker
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 1:26 pm

by devonbiker

Wookski wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:39 pm
In the near future the pros will be on discs and if not, they’ll be on “pro only” rim version of disc bikes available to the public (think Boonen’s white Roubaix). Rim brake development has already ceased, there’s no point in pretending change isn’t happening. There will always be custom makers willing to produce rim brake frames which is great because we all know factory bikes are for people with no dreams ;)
I've always thought the whole rim vs disc decision comes down to budget. If I "only" have £2-3000 to spend on a new bike, and I tend to want to ride fast on a bike, whether it's a sunday club ride, a sportive or the daily commute, I would rather have a sub 7.5kg racing bike i.e. full Ultegra TCR, and that could only be rim, as they give you the most bang for your buck. If I had a budget of £4000 upwards, I could potentially look at disc models that are just as light as much cheaper rim equaivalents because of the lighter frames, carbon wheels and full Dura-Ace groupsets you get on expensive bikes, so the 0.5kg weight penalty of having discs is offset by the other components of the bike.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 3604
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Lewn777 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:15 am

The only 'problem' with marketing the rim brake bike is that nearly everyone's already got one. :roll:
The issue is real people don't see a distinction between the rim-brake bike and the disc-brake bike, but they might see a distinction between and endurance bike and a gravel bike...both disc of course.

So let's really dissect the situation.

1) The Roubaix bike is the same thing as the endurance bike. On the road side, the major manufacturers still only have a handful of categories. Most have aero road, all-round road, endurance road, gravel, CX, TT/Tri (some have Tri specific bikes,) touring, fitness/hybrid. I think all of these are fairly distinct and all but the first three are better off with disc-brakes. Yes, even the TT/Tri bikes since you can design the fork legs to be wider, reducing turbulent flow. Some of these categories will consolidate too. Aero and all-rounder will become one. Gravel and CX is the other weakest distinction.

2) New customers vs old. New customers won't be looking for rim or disc...they're just looking for a bike. They have no preferences. The new customer is the lowest-hanging fruit. In the US, only a single digit percentage of the population rides a bike at least once per week. Even existing customers might favor disc, especially if they are coming from MTB, already own a CX/gravel bike or hybrid.

3) Some people do in fact ride in mountains, hardpack, or weather. Disc helps there and is not a liability in ideal conditions...for real people.

Don't you agree that the vast majority of the target market don't care at all for a redundant rim-brake bike? Do you really think it's worth it for any volume focused manufacturer to double their SKU count to satisfy such a small number of people? I haven't seen the exact shipment numbers for the rim-brake Madone complete bikes and frameset, but I'm told Trek regrets the choice. Co-developing the rim-brake version was a colossal waste of resources.

Bigger Gear
Posts: 451
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:58 pm
Location: Wet coast, Canada

by Bigger Gear

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:48 pm
Do you really think it's worth it for any volume focused manufacturer to double their SKU count to satisfy such a small number of people? I haven't seen the exact shipment numbers for the rim-brake Madone complete bikes and frameset, but I'm told Trek regrets the choice. Co-developing the rim-brake version was a colossal waste of resources.
Trek could have spared themselves some resources by developing the rim-braked Madone to have a more simple design that used conventional brakes or direct mount brakes instead of engineering their own design. But I get your point, at this time for the big companies it is easier to just forge ahead with disc brake development from a cost perspective. Whether or not this is the best option for consumers is highly debatable as 10 pages has proven.

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Dan Gerous
Posts: 929
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:28 pm

by Dan Gerous

I'm glad Cannondale gives us both options for the upcoming SuperSix Evo and CAAD13...
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ome rodriguez
Posts: 433
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:16 am

by ome rodriguez

This is given since most ef drapac gc riders use rimbrakes.
I wonder if nibali’s transfer to trek next year if he’ll ride discs, he doesn’t ride the merida disc?

Wookski
Posts: 1074
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:51 am

by Wookski

devonbiker wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:27 pm
If I had a budget of £4000 upwards, I could potentially look at disc models that are just as light as much cheaper rim equaivalents because of the lighter frames, carbon wheels and full Dura-Ace groupsets you get on expensive bikes, so the 0.5kg weight penalty of having discs is offset by the other components of the bike.
Price is not necessarily a consideration. In fact, I’m guessing that I’m not alone and there will be laggards like me willing to burn more $ on rim than disc.

In the near future if you’re only contemplating big brand models then your options will be limited and rim won’t be in the picture.

ducman
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:49 pm

by ducman

MoPho wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:56 am
To long to repost/quote.....And you're a fool if you think your getting dropped on a hill because of your bike or what brakes you have.
Then you're the one for whom disc brakes are perfect!

by Weenie


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