Campagnolo 12-Speed

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
XCProMD
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by XCProMD

morrisond wrote:
AJS914 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:05 am
From reading the cyclingtips article, it seems like Campy was a bit too conservative with some of the choices. Like:
An updated rim-brake caliper now handles rims up to 28mm-wide
People are buying 28mm tires now, putting them on wide rims where they measure 30mm+.

53/39 is not an available option.
the stated tire clearance for the front derailleur tops out at a modest 700x32mm
It doesn't sound like Campy was thinking about gravel at all. Just old geezers. :-)
Assuming the 12sp FD have the same or more clearance than 11sp - there should be lots of clearance - I am running a Potenza FD with 700x42 - lots of space on my Gravel bike.

But then Gravel bikes tend to have longer Chain stays so this is not an issue. The chainstays would have to be longer than ones for a 700x32 tire (or the tire will rub) anyways - so there should lots of room for gravel tires.
It is quite amazing the amount of rubbish Huang managed to put together this time.

Apart from confusing the new RD geo with the previous generation, the tale he builds around the FD not being able to clear more than 32c tyres is almost mesmerising. Next line he’s already inferring Campag is not interested in gravel but just old farts wanting an good ol’days brand. Then on to wonder what the semi-god, mega-engineers at Shimano.

Bollocks, Huang. Utter bollocks


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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

XCProMD wrote:
morrisond wrote:
AJS914 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:05 am
From reading the cyclingtips article, it seems like Campy was a bit too conservative with some of the choices. Like:
An updated rim-brake caliper now handles rims up to 28mm-wide
People are buying 28mm tires now, putting them on wide rims where they measure 30mm+.

53/39 is not an available option.
the stated tire clearance for the front derailleur tops out at a modest 700x32mm
It doesn't sound like Campy was thinking about gravel at all. Just old geezers. :-)
Assuming the 12sp FD have the same or more clearance than 11sp - there should be lots of clearance - I am running a Potenza FD with 700x42 - lots of space on my Gravel bike.

But then Gravel bikes tend to have longer Chain stays so this is not an issue. The chainstays would have to be longer than ones for a 700x32 tire (or the tire will rub) anyways - so there should lots of room for gravel tires.
It is quite amazing the amount of rubbish Huang managed to put together this time.

Apart from confusing the new RD geo with the previous generation, the tale he builds around the FD not being able to clear more than 32c tyres is almost mesmerising. Next line he’s already inferring Campag is not interested in gravel but just old farts wanting an good ol’days brand. Then on to wonder what the semi-god, mega-engineers at Shimano.

Bollocks, Huang. Utter bollocks


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Yo be fair he was referring to Campag’s reluctance to say it was aimed at gravel. The article he wrote was not that bad at all. At least he didn’t state that R12 & SR12 cranks could be fitted with the 48/32 rings as Bikerumor did. That is worthy of amateur hour.


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muti
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by muti

According to Cyclingtips,the conclusion of Campagnolo releasing a new groupset is what the unbelievably clever engineers of Shimano are up to.Cycling journalism at its best.We all understand what to expect on the "long term review"...

XCProMD
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by XCProMD

That’s one of the thing I was talking about. Easy to see the message here. Those lousy Italians did it first but I’m sure the Japanese are already working on it and it will be better. Plus Campag is for old untrained nostalgics and blah blah.


Thing is SRAM has 2 electronic and Campag 3 mechanical and 1 electronic 12 speed groupsets. We all know Shimano can come up with something. All they have to do is adapting the 12s XTR. But then, how fast can them, and are they really interested considering they don’t need to do it to keep their income?

Bikerumor didn’t get the BCD thing right but they already published weights on a scale instead of a sociological guesstimate and a virtual travel to Osaka.



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AJS914
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by AJS914

XCProMD wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:56 am
That’s one of the thing I was talking about. Easy to see the message here. Those lousy Italians ...
That's what you read into that article? If anything he was way more critical of Shimano.

Personally, I didn't know the world was even waiting for sub-compact cranksets.

Ritxis
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by Ritxis

XCProMD wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:56 am
That’s one of the thing I was talking about. Easy to see the message here. Those lousy Italians did it first but I’m sure the Japanese are already working on it and it will be better. Plus Campag is for old untrained nostalgics and blah blah.


Thing is SRAM has 2 electronic and Campag 3 mechanical and 1 electronic 12 speed groupsets. We all know Shimano can come up with something. All they have to do is adapting the 12s XTR. But then, how fast can them, and are they really interested considering they don’t need to do it to keep their income?

Bikerumor didn’t get the BCD thing right but they already published weights on a scale instead of a sociological guesstimate and a virtual travel to Osaka.



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In brief Shimano takes out a groupset for gravel.......name "GRX" but you already have at least the rear derailleurs Ultegra RX

Shimano introduces road 12 speed next year.................For now it's time to "renew " the Dura-ace.....And by the way take advantage of the Tokyo Olympics 2020, and in February 2021 it turns 100 years

"I'm still waiting for Campagnolo to do something else"...................satellite shifters for EPS, or a few push buttons on the top of the levers, for example

morrisond
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by morrisond

BTW - Campy says it's RD's don't need a clutch due to how much chain wrap the new 12sp RD's have - it would have been redundant.

XCProMD
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by XCProMD

The GRX we all know, it’s been already briefed, but it’s still 11s.

The 12s Dura-Ace remains to be seen if it will be ready for 2020. The tooling is far from ready. On top on that it’s not yet on freeze, there’s a 12s version of the current version and a different thing being prototyped at the moment. They know that they are aware of having another 12s XTR case in which they are not actually able to manufacture what they announced and then have to rush temporary fixes.

Nothing wrong with all the above, let’s be clear. Especially not when the market is yours big time. Shimano could stretch the current product line for 5 or more years and still not risk their position.

I wonder if James Huang omits that the 3D Embrace geometry (he calls it “Embrace”, that was the last 11s geo) includes springs at the top and bottom knuckles (as Shimano non-Shadow RD‘s), and that the relative positions of those make a clutch unnecessary even for the wildest thing a gravel bike can do, out of ignorance or something else.






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Calnago
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by Calnago

robertbb wrote:
Calnago wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:35 am
No, there is no loss of braking efficiency as a result of that. The stop is a stop, a hard stop. Super Record brakes are still the smoothest operating caliper available, bar none.
The difference is astounding. Like night and day. Have a good look at that ferrule piece on a set of C/R/SR brakes as you pull the lever and engage the rim. It moves! Which means it's losing power and the "system" overall isn't as stiff. Nowhere near as stiff, actually, as the threaded system.

If you're bored, give it a shot and see. They're cheap, and the logo says "Campagnolo" in the black-on-white logo that complements Record/Super Record nicely:

https://www.wiggle.co.uk/campagnolo-ske ... ual-pivot/

Night and day I tells ya! :unbelievable:
Ha... Yes, I’m familiar with the non series calipers. They are the same design as the Chorus calipers. They actually have a bit more clearance than Record or SR which is why I used them on the Koppenberg to test out some bigger tires. But since I’ve settled on 25mm tires I’ve gone back to SR calipers. If you are experiencing night and day difference in performance, with your non series calipers offering up better performance than SR for example, then you’ve got an issue somewhere else in your system, assuming there’s nothing broken in the calipers themselves.
Here’s a Chorus caliper, same overall design as the non series caliper, just a bit higher quality materials if I’m not mistaken (and I could be on this one). But the design is the same...
Image

I know exactly what you’re referring to with the difference between the housing stops, but once the cable is installed, that part of things is irrelevant to the function, except for the SR and Record being easier to adjust with half turn notches etc and no need to lock it down afterwards by tightening the threaded lock nut.
There’s a whole lot of things that could affect the function between the lever and the caliper however. Here’s a list to start with...
- is every end of every piece of brake housing cut square with no metal burrs left over from the cut, or messed up liner causing friction. The ends should ideally look like this...
Image

Versus just a cleaned up version of this...
Image
A small burr can really create a rough feel when pulling the lever.

- Is the end that enters the lever completely and fully seated. It’s easy for that to move around a bit during lever install and adjustment. If it’s not bottomed out within the lever, there’s a big potential source of mushiness.
- internal cable routing bends from bars through headtube etc etc. Every bend adds to the friction. And the tighter the bend, the more friction created.
- Are there any rough edges that the inner cable has to pass over, particularly as it enters and exits the top tube if internally routed through it. It is impossible to see those edges on the inside of the tube but not hard to feel them as the cable scrapes over them. Some small pieces of liner to get around those edges helps a lot.
Image

- make sure the housing stop on Record and SR at the caliper is seated properly and the adjuster is seated in its notches.

- Brake pad alignment, toe-in, etc is critical. Differences in any of these things are most certainly going to give different experiences when braking. Also, fresh pads vs old pads etc., same thing.

- at the end of the day, there’s a whole lot of things that happen between the levers and the final action at the rim. And the difference in function between the various standard Campagnolo rim brake calipers are not so great that if on identical setups a “night and day” difference is felt, then I’d be looking for an alternate explanation for that difference than the caliper itself. But SR are definitely the nicest. A further test you might want to do is to install the different calipers on the two different bikes, as none of the tests you performed tested the different setups from lever to rim completely.

I’m running the new standard mount calipers currently on two bikes currently. Functionally no different than the previous skeletons. But aesthetically they are gorgeous with the more subtle graphics, etc. and all blacked out.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

morrisond
Posts: 928
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:34 pm

by morrisond

Calnago wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:31 pm
robertbb wrote:
Calnago wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:35 am
No, there is no loss of braking efficiency as a result of that. The stop is a stop, a hard stop. Super Record brakes are still the smoothest operating caliper available, bar none.
The difference is astounding. Like night and day. Have a good look at that ferrule piece on a set of C/R/SR brakes as you pull the lever and engage the rim. It moves! Which means it's losing power and the "system" overall isn't as stiff. Nowhere near as stiff, actually, as the threaded system.

If you're bored, give it a shot and see. They're cheap, and the logo says "Campagnolo" in the black-on-white logo that complements Record/Super Record nicely:

https://www.wiggle.co.uk/campagnolo-ske ... ual-pivot/

Night and day I tells ya! :unbelievable:
Ha... Yes, I’m familiar with the non series calipers. They are the same design as the Chorus calipers. They actually have a bit more clearance than Record or SR which is why I used them on the Koppenberg to test out some bigger tires. But since I’ve settled on 25mm tires I’ve gone back to SR calipers. If you are experiencing night and day difference in performance, with your non series calipers offering up better performance than SR for example, then you’ve got an issue somewhere else in your system, assuming there’s nothing broken in the calipers themselves.
Here’s a Chorus caliper, same overall design as the non series caliper, just a bit higher quality materials if I’m not mistaken (and I could be on this one). But the design is the same...
Image

I know exactly what you’re referring to with the difference between the housing stops, but once the cable is installed, that part of things is irrelevant to the function, except for the SR and Record being easier to adjust with half turn notches etc and no need to lock it down afterwards by tightening the threaded lock nut.
There’s a whole lot of things that could affect the function between the lever and the caliper however. Here’s a list to start with...
- is every end of every piece of brake housing cut square with no metal burrs left over from the cut, or messed up liner causing friction. The ends should ideally look like this...
Image

Versus just a cleaned up version of this...
Image
A small burr can really create a rough feel when pulling the lever.

- Is the end that enters the lever completely and fully seated. It’s easy for that to move around a bit during lever install and adjustment. If it’s not bottomed out within the lever, there’s a big potential source of mushiness.
- internal cable routing bends from bars through headtube etc etc. Every bend adds to the friction. And the tighter the bend, the more friction created.
- Are there any rough edges that the inner cable has to pass over, particularly as it enters and exits the top tube if internally routed through it. It is impossible to see those edges on the inside of the tube but not hard to feel them as the cable scrapes over them. Some small pieces of liner to get around those edges helps a lot.
Image

- make sure the housing stop on Record and SR at the caliper is seated properly and the adjuster is seated in its notches.

- Brake pad alignment, toe-in, etc is critical. Differences in any of these things are most certainly going to give different experiences when braking. Also, fresh pads vs old pads etc., same thing.

- at the end of the day, there’s a whole lot of things that happen between the levers and the final action at the rim. And the difference in function between the various standard Campagnolo rim brake calipers are not so great that if on identical setups a “night and day” difference is felt, then I’d be looking for an alternate explanation for that difference than the caliper itself. But SR are definitely the nicest. A further test you might want to do is to install the different calipers on the two different bikes, as none of the tests you performed tested the different setups from lever to rim completely.

I’m running the new standard mount calipers currently on two bikes currently. Functionally no different than the previous skeletons. But aesthetically they are gorgeous with the more subtle graphics, etc. and all blacked out.
Hi Calnago - What tool do you use to get suck clean cuts on your outers? I've been using a Park CN-10 and it's kind of hit and miss.

RyanH
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by RyanH

Yes, calnago, share with us your ways

AJS914
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by AJS914

I don't know what Calnago uses but you can clean up ends with a bench grinder or hand file. The later takes time. If you use a bench grinder it will heat up and melt the liner shut so when it's still warm you poke a cable through from the other end, widen the liner hole, and make it perfect.

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kytyree
Posts: 631
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Location: US

by kytyree

I picked up a pair of KNIPEX 95 61 190 US Wire Rope Cutters and they make a nice clean cut. Using them on everything, including hydraulic brake lines.

Alexandrumarian
Posts: 404
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:34 pm
Location: Romania

by Alexandrumarian

I used to cut mine with a saw and finish by hand with files but it was a long pita. I now cut them with a diamond blade on a mini table saw. One big plus is no heat is generated. I'm sure such blades can be found for Dremels, maybe for grinders too.
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Calnago
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by Calnago

Yup, bench grinder on a new build. Short round passes at the grinder followed with a spoke poke in between passes to keep the ends open and making sure the liner doesn't melt shut. And also mentioned, it's good to have some derailleur cable on hand to be able to run through from the other side to "open" things up if it does get shut a bit, before you open it up properly with a spoke or awl. I generally use the Park cable cutters to get the length, but that really doesn't leave a finished end that I'd be happy with. So then you choose your poison... bench grinder, hand file, dremel etc. I've experimented with a dremel wheel for cutting while on the bike but that never worked out as well as just marking the lengths then going off to the bench grinder to finish things up right. Kind of depends. Like was mentioned, anything that generates heat you have to be careful so as not to melt the liner, or at least have an awl at the ready to make sure it stays open. Hand file works, but takes time and you need someway to hold the housing firmly otherwise it wants to wiggle all over the place. Not rocket science, just attention to the things that make the end product work as smooth as possible... pretty much all of this is covered in my C60 Build Thread, this link should get you to the most appropriate post where I detail this all out...
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=142391&p=1274286#p1274286
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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