Scott Bikes Rim Brake Future

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

Wheels may be less aero but as a system many bikes are on par with their rim counterparts so....

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Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

MyM3Coupe wrote:
Calnago wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:13 pm
to finally get their pros to use discs they just stopped making rim brake models. End of discussion. No more choice. So there. Ok. Thank you Specialized.
Brilliant post, and I so agree. Specialized is a trash company and I’d never own anything they make. And yes, this crap about “wearing out” rims of any sort is hilarious. The marketing folks can be smart; they sold aero carbon wheels to the masses who will not benefit 1% from them less they ride 25-30 mph at the perfect yaw angle. Fools.
You must lead a pretty sad life to be so bitter all the time.

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mattr
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by mattr

youjettisonme wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:37 am
Literally no one is forcing you to buy it.
Pretty much everyone will be forced to buy discs if they want a new mid/high end bike soon. 5 years down the line, it'll be all over. Parts will be available for longer.
youjettisonme wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:37 am
The modulation is sooo much better than rim brakes, and you can slow and stop on steep descents using one finger. Also huge.
We get it, you're incapable of setting up rim/cable brakes well. I've done back to backs on D-A and SRAM red discs and rim brakes. THe difference is miniscule for shimano, noticeable on the SRAM Red. Which is amazing based on how bad Avid disc brakes are.
youjettisonme wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:37 am
I have nothing against calipers, and similarly, you need not have anything against a product you don't care about. Why try to convince strangers otherwise? To what ends?
Lack of choice. That's it.

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Lewn777
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by Lewn777

youjettisonme wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:37 am
Lewn777 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:51 am
After using mechanical and hydraulic disk brakes on motos, MTBs and CX bikes for over 20 years I hate the idea of disk brakes on a road bike. Marketing department driven marginal gains in the wet only.

Direct mount brakes, wheel rim surfaces adn rim brake blocks are still evolving.

I've got Shimano Dua-Ace on DT Swiss alloy rims, disk brakes are not better in the dry, you're just adding weight and complication for absolutely no reason, couldn't ask for better power or modulation. It's the 26inch-to 27.5inch MTB wheel American/Taiwanese manufacturer driven money grab 2.0. Most people shouting loudly for disk brakes are simply suffering from post purchase rationalization or are seeing psychological benefits. Why you'd seek add weight and complication to your bike for such marginal gains is beyond me.

Sorry to be so aggressive in my opinion, but I'm sick of this.
I love all the people who claim to be "sick of it". Literally no one is forcing you to buy it. No one if forcing you to buy anything at all. All of these retro grouch traditionalists, just turned off that someone else could like something they don't. Makes zero sense.

That said, your take on performance is also hot garbage. As someone who rode for 6 years then raced for another 8 years, I've now been on disc for two years. I will never go back. If you live in a hilly and/or mountainous region, it's a HUGE advantage, period. The modulation is sooo much better than rim brakes, and you can slow and stop on steep descents using one finger. Also huge.

Last year was the first year I did the Eastern Sierras for a week, and being able to stop so easily on a 25 mile descent through switchbacks is a big deal as well. When I come back from a long ride, my hands/fingers/wrists, etc. aren't sore like they were prior.

I have nothing against calipers, and similarly, you need not have anything against a product you don't care about. Why try to convince strangers otherwise? To what ends?
Oh my god, what a load of fanboy post-purchase rationalizations and psychological codswallop. 'I just bought it so it must be better' rationale. I just got back from a 320km ride with almost 5000 meters of climbing and desecending. There's no more soreness in my limbs/hands etc than I would have had on disk brakes, faster down the decents than everyone else. One of the guys on a Trek Domane had a loosening centerlock and rubbing pads, no thanks.

Yes I do care about a product I don't like because it changes the whole industry. How soon before I go to a Giant/Trek/Specialized dealership and can't buy a rim brake bike? Or any bike under 7kg for less than $10000? A year or two? Then when the industry gets disk brakes through you'll see all sorts of new disk brakes with different bolt patterns, rotor sizes, 1x, cranks with different Q-factors, 13 speed and 14 speed cassette groupos with only disk brake compaitibility. Peoples new fangled bikes will look dated in a year or two, just like MTBs do now.

All slimplicity and lightness put to the sword for 'newness' 'techyness' 'percieved betterness' with barely a shred of scientific evidence to back it up.
'Better modulation' - impossible to prove, there are hundreds of rim and brake combinations and tens of disk brake combos. If your older carbon rim and single pivot system wasn't that good, then try a modern ceramic coated alloy rim and direct mount calipers and tell me they aren't significantly better.
'one finger braking' - Road bike levers are designed for two fingers so I use two fingers. I used one finger braking in MTB becuase the levers are designed for one finger. I used three fingers on motos because the levers are designed that way too, even though those brakes are far more powerful than bicycle brakes.

Why try to convice strangers against disk brakes? Because they're not actually better in the dry, will make your bike significantly heavier and far more complex to work on. I have all the tools, and knowledge and don't want disk brakes so a disk brake noob is opening a pandoras box of annoyance and/or expense for no good reason - it's not their fault they're just falling for the marketing, they don't have any actal expirence. On these forums there are many reports of people abandoning disk brakes and going back to rims. It's just like tubeless for the road, if you are only getting a puntcture or two every 10,000kms it's a pointless headache going tubeless too. Just because something makes sense for MTB then somehow it makes sense for a road bike? How? I'm no road bike old man anti-everything new curmudgeon, I've been using and wrenching this tech since it was first introduced on MTBs over ten years ago.

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Lewn777
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by Lewn777

Calnago wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:13 pm
The whole wearing out carbon rims argument has been way overplayed. How many people do you know running rim brake carbon rims have actually worn out their carbon rims from normal wear and tear? They are much harder and more durable in that regard than alloy rims. And for that matter how many alloy rims have you actually worn out in the past from just wear and tear? This was an argument used early on about an advantage of discs. It really isn’t that valid unless you are truly wearing out your rims pretty regularly. I know I’m not and don’t know anyone who is. I’m sure you can find a few in the internet, however. The way some people go on you would think they’re wearing out a set of rims every month or so. I still have my first set of carbon Boras from 2010 that are perfectly fine.
It’s no secret that Specialized would like the rim brake market to just be dead. I think it’s somewhat of an embarrassment to them that by now it’s still alive and well. And to finally get their pros to use discs they just stopped making rim brake models. End of discussion. No more choice. So there. Ok. Thank you Specialized.
Actually I get around 20,000-30,000kms from my alloy rims in very hilly/mountainous riding. In the UK (Campag Zonda) it's a bit less than in China (DT Swiss) as the UK is wetter. Still, rim wear even though it's an issue, isn't a big deal. By the time the rim is worn it's time for a total overhaul incl new bearings. I'm perfectly happy to accept in this regard disks could be marginally better, but this still isn't enough to make me want to switch to disks. Disks get pitted and worn just as quickly or even quicker on occasion and you can easily ding any kind of rim.

mattr
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by mattr

To be perfectly fair, i've chewed through an alloy rim on a commuter in weeks before now. Shouldn't have cheaped out.

So i'd get discs on a commuter/winter/wet weather/training bike. If i was in the market for a new one.

But i'm not, so i'll live with my usual cycle for new rims, which was (usually) running at about 1 to 1.5 rims per year. These days, it's more like 1 rim every 3 years :(

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Calnago
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by Calnago

@Mattr, it sounds like you still ride your bike far more than the average Joe around these forums, so three years is still pretty good. Hell, seems like folks around here are changing their bikes before they wear out a set of rims. No, the discs save rims argument as a main reason for choosing discs is lame, for sure. If one wants to ride discs, fine, but don’t use rim wear as a main reason for doing so, unless you’ve got a stack of worn out rims in your garage you can show.
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filip00
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by filip00

Riding long descends like the alps gives you a chance to thoroughly test rim vs disc brakes. In the dry the difference is miniscule. I see bigger difference if i have fatter tyres, than i see using dics or rim brakes. In the wet, there's no contest. Regardless of how much you clean your rims or what pads you use, discs are superior in the wet. Modulation being better means you have a much better feel for when the wheel might lock up.
That all being said, i'll never own a road bike with discs. I dislike the look and i never felt the need for having disc brakes on them. Rainy weather will put me off my road bike anway.

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Beaver
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by Beaver

Would he have been faster with disc? Or is it about running the racing line in the fastest speed possible?



For those who found the disc bikes to brake better: Are you running the same rim/tire width? If you come from 15mm inside width and your disc bike e. g. has 21mm, that makes some significent difference in stopping power of the tire...

Aero: more spokes and the rotor will always cause more drag. Tour now has tested two identical Fascenario.3 Comp and there was four watts difference...

And interestingly the rotor side now also causes more or less drag in Specialized own test as one side is "slower": :thumbup:

Image
https://bikerumor.com/2019/04/10/2019-s ... shock-2-0/

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Beaver
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by Beaver

youjettisonme wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:41 am
Teammate went through THREE sets of Enve's on steep descents. This really depends on where you live, the kind of riding you do, and your weight. I'm not a heavy rider, but I've ruined two sets, as I delaminated one wheel and completely torched another by wearing the pads done to the housing, another huge issue with carbon hoops and calipers. And alloy rims? Those also wear out after about 3 years. Just had my buddy ruin her rear hoop which now needs replacement. Not uncommon at all if you put in big miles.

These argumets are EXCELLENT for those who liver in flatter areas or don't ride big miles, but for others, disc brakes are a huge improvement, period.
Was that the old or current Enve brake track? If it really was a problem, I think we should see more pictures of delaminated rims here...

As for Specialized, your should keep your word: https://road.cc/content/news/220782-spe ... isc-brakes :mrgreen:

cunn1n9
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by cunn1n9

youjettisonme wrote:
Calnago wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:13 pm
The whole wearing out carbon rims argument has been way overplayed. How many people do you know running rim brake carbon rims have actually worn out their carbon rims from normal wear and tear? They are much harder and more durable in that regard than alloy rims. And for that matter how many alloy rims have you actually worn out in the past from just wear and tear? This was an argument used early on about an advantage of discs. It really isn’t that valid unless you are truly wearing out your rims pretty regularly. I know I’m not and don’t know anyone who is. I’m sure you can find a few in the internet, however. The way some people go on you would think they’re wearing out a set of rims every month or so. I still have my first set of carbon Boras from 2010 that are perfectly fine.
It’s no secret that Specialized would like the rim brake market to just be dead. I think it’s somewhat of an embarrassment to them that by now it’s still alive and well. And to finally get their pros to use discs they just stopped making rim brake models. End of discussion. No more choice. So there. Ok. Thank you Specialized.
Teammate went through THREE sets of Enve's on steep descents. This really depends on where you live, the kind of riding you do, and your weight. I'm not a heavy rider, but I've ruined two sets, as I delaminated one wheel and completely torched another by wearing the pads done to the housing, another huge issue with carbon hoops and calipers. And alloy rims? Those also wear out after about 3 years. Just had my buddy ruin her rear hoop which now needs replacement. Not uncommon at all if you put in big miles.

These argumets are EXCELLENT for those who liver in flatter areas or don't ride big miles, but for others, disc brakes are a huge improvement, period.
Well I use 303’s (firecrest) and 404’s (firestrikes). Both done over 30,000km. Used them everywhere including commuting. I live in a hilly area and so they see plenty of braking. If you use Zipp’s pads the brake strip lasts forever as the pads are soft and sacrificial which is exactly what you want.

I know people too who have ruined Enve’s. I have never seen a FC or FS Zipp brake track ruined. I am sure it could be done but not in normal riding situations.

As for rim vs disc. I now have both - two rim bikes and two disc bikes. Both rim bikes are DA and my disc road is DA and my CX is SRAM. My experience is:

1. Braking power.
Alloy rims vs disc brakes. I see no difference in stopping distance IF it is dry. In the wet the disc are much superior as they bite immediately.
Zipp FC/FS vs disc brakes. In the dry the discs are marginally better let’s say 10% better in terms of stopping distance. In the wet the difference is large in favour of the discs.

2. Modulation
Discs much better in my opinion as it’s always the same.
I can also brake with on e finger and the power is the same. No tired hands on long descents any more.

3. Sound
Mostly in favour of discs as they don’t squeak. Once hot the rim brakes can sometimes make noise. Sometimes on the discs if you get dust I guess they can make a rough sounding noise but is gone very soon.

4. Ease of use
Rim by far.
Through axles are a pain to align particularly in the rear wheel.
Most times I change wheels and sometimes when I reinstall the same wheel I need to adjust the disc brake alignment. A MTB mate gave me a tip for doing this that made it much better. Simply undo the disc brake caliper mounting bolts slightly to allow movement. Apply the brake and without releasing the brake tighten the mounting bolts again. This was a life saver for me and makes the pain far less. You may already know this tip but I didn’t and was trying to align by eyesight and was actually going to give up on discs due to this. However even though this is not necessary or far simpler on rim brakes I can now live with this.
I have not had to bleed brakes yet but of course this must be far harder then running a new cable On a rim brake system. However I am hoping it’s a once every year or two thing.

5. Feel
A tie.
When the rim brakes are set they feel fine except the modulation is less linear in my opinion. However due to sometimes the disc brakes seeing to make a slight grinding noise and feeling a little rough (like something is in between the rotor and pads) I make this a tie.

Agree that manufacturers should make the disc tolerance bigger but I think that means the master cylinder must be bigger as well.

As for Shimano vs SRAM it’s unfair as I have DA on road bike and Rival on CX bike but the Shimano is much better. Maybe Red or AXS would be more similar.


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Lewn777
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by Lewn777

cunn1n9 wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:22 pm
youjettisonme wrote:
Calnago wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:13 pm
The whole wearing out carbon rims argument has been way overplayed. How many people do you know running rim brake carbon rims have actually worn out their carbon rims from normal wear and tear? They are much harder and more durable in that regard than alloy rims. And for that matter how many alloy rims have you actually worn out in the past from just wear and tear? This was an argument used early on about an advantage of discs. It really isn’t that valid unless you are truly wearing out your rims pretty regularly. I know I’m not and don’t know anyone who is. I’m sure you can find a few in the internet, however. The way some people go on you would think they’re wearing out a set of rims every month or so. I still have my first set of carbon Boras from 2010 that are perfectly fine.
It’s no secret that Specialized would like the rim brake market to just be dead. I think it’s somewhat of an embarrassment to them that by now it’s still alive and well. And to finally get their pros to use discs they just stopped making rim brake models. End of discussion. No more choice. So there. Ok. Thank you Specialized.
Teammate went through THREE sets of Enve's on steep descents. This really depends on where you live, the kind of riding you do, and your weight. I'm not a heavy rider, but I've ruined two sets, as I delaminated one wheel and completely torched another by wearing the pads done to the housing, another huge issue with carbon hoops and calipers. And alloy rims? Those also wear out after about 3 years. Just had my buddy ruin her rear hoop which now needs replacement. Not uncommon at all if you put in big miles.

These argumets are EXCELLENT for those who liver in flatter areas or don't ride big miles, but for others, disc brakes are a huge improvement, period.
Well I use 303’s (firecrest) and 404’s (firestrikes). Both done over 30,000km. Used them everywhere including commuting. I live in a hilly area and so they see plenty of braking. If you use Zipp’s pads the brake strip lasts forever as the pads are soft and sacrificial which is exactly what you want.

I know people too who have ruined Enve’s. I have never seen a FC or FS Zipp brake track ruined. I am sure it could be done but not in normal riding situations.

As for rim vs disc. I now have both - two rim bikes and two disc bikes. Both rim bikes are DA and my disc road is DA and my CX is SRAM. My experience is:

1. Braking power.
Alloy rims vs disc brakes. I see no difference in stopping distance IF it is dry. In the wet the disc are much superior as they bite immediately.
Zipp FC/FS vs disc brakes. In the dry the discs are marginally better let’s say 10% better in terms of stopping distance. In the wet the difference is large in favour of the discs.

2. Modulation
Discs much better in my opinion as it’s always the same.
I can also brake with on e finger and the power is the same. No tired hands on long descents any more.

3. Sound
Mostly in favour of discs as they don’t squeak. Once hot the rim brakes can sometimes make noise. Sometimes on the discs if you get dust I guess they can make a rough sounding noise but is gone very soon.

4. Ease of use
Rim by far.
Through axles are a pain to align particularly in the rear wheel.
Most times I change wheels and sometimes when I reinstall the same wheel I need to adjust the disc brake alignment. A MTB mate gave me a tip for doing this that made it much better. Simply undo the disc brake caliper mounting bolts slightly to allow movement. Apply the brake and without releasing the brake tighten the mounting bolts again. This was a life saver for me and makes the pain far less. You may already know this tip but I didn’t and was trying to align by eyesight and was actually going to give up on discs due to this. However even though this is not necessary or far simpler on rim brakes I can now live with this.
I have not had to bleed brakes yet but of course this must be far harder then running a new cable On a rim brake system. However I am hoping it’s a once every year or two thing.

5. Feel
A tie.
When the rim brakes are set they feel fine except the modulation is less linear in my opinion. However due to sometimes the disc brakes seeing to make a slight grinding noise and feeling a little rough (like something is in between the rotor and pads) I make this a tie.

Agree that manufacturers should make the disc tolerance bigger but I think that means the master cylinder must be bigger as well.

As for Shimano vs SRAM it’s unfair as I have DA on road bike and Rival on CX bike but the Shimano is much better. Maybe Red or AXS would be more similar.


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Great post.
Someone that can keep their objectivity is a rarity! Well done. :thumbup:

Reasonable disk brake adopter: I think that disk brakes in many situations are better than rim brakes, because the riding I do suits them and it's wet here with dangerous roads. I know there are downsides like weight and complication, but they are worth it to me. But if I lived in a different place I might really want the option of rim brakes, particularly on a climbing bike. - Fair enough

Unreasonable disk brake fanboy:
Disk brakes are the future, end of. Rim brakes will be phased out soon because they are complete garbage compared with the uber new disk brakes, it's not like they've been ported across from MTB with barely a thought. In fact people that live in dry areas and like a lightweight climbing bike for a reasonable price should simply be forced onto the much more superior disk brakes and have to spend more money and have a heavier bike. I've never changed a pad, bled a system, cleaned a piston or a aligned a caliper, because I'm basically a total noob to disk brakes, I was told by the marketing department of Specialized that they're practically zero maintenace. I'm in total denial of all downsides to disk brakes willfully or out of complete ignorance. This is what everyone wants and the best thing since sliced bread. - Nonsense

MoPho
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by MoPho

Lewn777 wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:42 am

Great post.
Someone that can keep their objectivity is a rarity! Well done. :thumbup:

Reasonable disk brake adopter: I think that disk brakes in many situations are better than rim brakes, because the riding I do suits them and it's wet here with dangerous roads. I know there are downsides like weight and complication, but they are worth it to me. But if I lived in a different place I might really want the option of rim brakes, particularly on a climbing bike. - Fair enough

Unreasonable disk brake fanboy:
Disk brakes are the future, end of. Rim brakes will be phased out soon because they are complete garbage compared with the uber new disk brakes, it's not like they've been ported across from MTB with barely a thought. In fact people that live in dry areas and like a lightweight climbing bike for a reasonable price should simply be forced onto the much more superior disk brakes and have to spend more money and have a heavier bike. I've never changed a pad, bled a system, cleaned a piston or a aligned a caliper, because I'm basically a total noob to disk brakes, I was told by the marketing department of Specialized that they're practically zero maintenace. I'm in total denial of all downsides to disk brakes willfully or out of complete ignorance. This is what everyone wants and the best thing since sliced bread. - Nonsense

Awe, you think you're objective, that's so cute :lol:



.

iamraymond
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:59 am

by iamraymond

Absolutely great post by cunn1n9. I made the switch from caliper brakes (on alloy rims) to disc brakes last year, and I agree 100% with everything that cunn1n9 mentioned.

When I first made the switch, I was confused by the term 'modulation' because I thought modulation = stopping power. I used to run my pads very close to the rim so I was used to very little lever throw. I didn't like the longer throw (i.e. modulation) afforded by the disc brakes at first, but now that I'm used to it it's not a problem. I've even adjusted my rim brake bikes so that the lever throw is the same as my disc bike.

I do my own wrenching and the maintenance of Shimano disc brakes is quite straightforward once you've got a bleed kit. Sure it takes a bit more time and patience to setup, but that's like 15 extra minutes once every few months (if that?). Granted I don't ride huge KMs like some others, but I've only adjusted my disc brakes twice in the past year.
Last edited by iamraymond on Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

mattr
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by mattr

iamraymond wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:13 am
I used to run my pads very close to the rim so I was used to very little lever throw. >snip< I've even adjusted my rim brake bikes so that the lever throw is the same as my disc bike.
Essentially, you had rims brakes set up badly enough so that you'd have had (effecively) modulation free rim brakes.........

by Weenie


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