Scott Bikes Rim Brake Future

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
robeambro
Posts: 523
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

Beaver wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:36 am
robeambro wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:29 am
Wow, this thread is taking such a novel and interesting spin. I don’t think I’ve ever heard these arguments, they bring such freshness to the discussion.
Ok, something new: What about an ecological comparison? Is it wrong to presume brake fluid doesn't shine here? Same for electrical drive trains with electric motors and batteries? Rim brakes and mechanical shifting are simply greener! :mrgreen:
kgt wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:29 am
Following Lews777's post: I wonder, has anyone ever compared a disc brake frame with its rim brake version on alu rims?
Tour Mag.: Dry no real difference but a bit better in the wet.
The green argument is actually interesting! However, as cyclist we already -arguably- tend to be much greener than the average person who drives cars or motorbikes etc, and to be honest I think a bit of brake fluid to be changed every now and then isn’t a big deal (or is it?) considering how much emissions we “save” already as a category.

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Beaver
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by Beaver

robeambro wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:06 am
The green argument is actually interesting! However, as cyclist we already -arguably- tend to be much greener than the average person who drives cars or motorbikes etc, and to be honest I think a bit of brake fluid to be changed every now and then isn’t a big deal (or is it?) considering how much emissions we “save” already as a category.
It's not that "decisive for the war", I would guess. ;) Running a car is far worse, or regular cheap flights or cruises, the cargo ships bringing our bikes (and everything else) from China running with heavy oil etc. It's a global matter and if the rich countries are "clean" and therefore the poor "dirty", it won't help much.

But e.g. electronic drivetrains with parts that will be special waste and batteries that take a lot of energy to be produced, need to be reloaded and later recycled, are not that ideal... And all of that for a little more comfort. :|

If we really want to save this world and keep it a place worth living in, everybody has to start with her-/himself...

by Weenie


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kgt
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Location: Athens, Greece

by kgt

+1
Electronic groupsets and electric bikes with their batteries etc. is a step towards the wrong direction in terms of a greener planet. You have the perfect ecological machine and you turn it into something that is considerably less so.

CAAD8FRED
Posts: 176
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:52 pm

by CAAD8FRED

kgt wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:06 pm
+1
Electronic groupsets and electric bikes with their batteries etc. is a step towards the wrong direction in terms of a greener planet. You have the perfect ecological machine and you turn it into something that is considerably less so.
Half the people here drive a gas car to a group ride so they can ride a carbon bike produced in a carbon emitting factory. I'm sure electric shifitng isn't adding more to this situation on the whole scale.

robeambro
Posts: 523
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

Beaver wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:37 am
robeambro wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:06 am
The green argument is actually interesting! However, as cyclist we already -arguably- tend to be much greener than the average person who drives cars or motorbikes etc, and to be honest I think a bit of brake fluid to be changed every now and then isn’t a big deal (or is it?) considering how much emissions we “save” already as a category.
It's not that "decisive for the war", I would guess. ;) Running a car is far worse, or regular cheap flights or cruises, the cargo ships bringing our bikes (and everything else) from China running with heavy oil etc. It's a global matter and if the rich countries are "clean" and therefore the poor "dirty", it won't help much.

But e.g. electronic drivetrains with parts that will be special waste and batteries that take a lot of energy to be produced, need to be reloaded and later recycled, are not that ideal... And all of that for a little more comfort. :|

If we really want to save this world and keep it a place worth living in, everybody has to start with her-/himself...
I wish I’d thought about this before getting an Ultegra Di2 bike. Fair point. I guess manufacturers veering towards electronic-only models doesn’t help either..

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Beaver
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Location: Lower Saxony - Germany

by Beaver

robeambro wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:49 pm
Beaver wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:37 am
robeambro wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:06 am
The green argument is actually interesting! However, as cyclist we already -arguably- tend to be much greener than the average person who drives cars or motorbikes etc, and to be honest I think a bit of brake fluid to be changed every now and then isn’t a big deal (or is it?) considering how much emissions we “save” already as a category.
It's not that "decisive for the war", I would guess. ;) Running a car is far worse, or regular cheap flights or cruises, the cargo ships bringing our bikes (and everything else) from China running with heavy oil etc. It's a global matter and if the rich countries are "clean" and therefore the poor "dirty", it won't help much.

But e.g. electronic drivetrains with parts that will be special waste and batteries that take a lot of energy to be produced, need to be reloaded and later recycled, are not that ideal... And all of that for a little more comfort. :|

If we really want to save this world and keep it a place worth living in, everybody has to start with her-/himself...
I wish I’d thought about this before getting an Ultegra Di2 bike. Fair point. I guess manufacturers veering towards electronic-only models doesn’t help either..
We had reached a point where there was no real room for improvement - electronic devices now offer plenty of it (smaller, lighter, faster, longer running time etc.) for some time. In the end there will also be stagnation like on the smartphone market now. We will see what happens then.

packetloss
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:29 pm

by packetloss

mattr wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:41 pm
Mail any manufacturer of any size and you'll get pretty much the same response.
Not Specialized. They are pretty much cutting out rim brake versions. For now they offer some frames as rim brake, but not full bikes. I had a discussion with them about this and their argument was the industry is going toward disc brakes.

packetloss
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:29 pm

by packetloss

ChiZ01 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:31 pm
after using mechanical disk for 2 month, there is really no comparison, better modulation, more stopping power, easier to clean, it is the future. also have other advantages of more tire clearance, ease to swap between 700c and 650c wheels. the only downside is the 2 lb extra weight
even 1/2 lb of extra weight is a big disadvantage. They are also harder to work on and configure yourself.

While I do agree that disc brakes have some advantages, they are small enough in some situations to not outweight the negatives. It's not as clear cut of an improvement as say moving the shifters from the down tube to the brake hoods or indexed shifting over non. I'd put it more inthe camp of electronic over mechanical. There is a reason both are still offered. I don't see why it wouldn't be the same for brakes.

Personally, I don't want the extra weight or aerodynamic loss of discs. Rim brakes work perfectly fine for my uses and they are trivial to maintain.

rollinslow
Posts: 64
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:25 am

by rollinslow

packetloss wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:36 pm
mattr wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:41 pm
Mail any manufacturer of any size and you'll get pretty much the same response.
Not Specialized. They are pretty much cutting out rim brake versions. For now they offer some frames as rim brake, but not full bikes. I had a discussion with them about this and their argument was the industry is going toward disc brakes.
It is really that Specialized is moving to discs only because it will have the chance to generate a more substantial revenue stream where consumers invest in more expensive bikes, new sets of wheels and other components as well as pay for more expensive maintenance services. If this was my business I would convert everyone to discs as well.

This opportunity to turn everyone onto a disc bike is the best thing since carbon. For a typical road bike I am perfectly content and safe riding in the wet, dry, down 13000ft mountains with zero concerns.

ChiZ01
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2014 6:20 pm

by ChiZ01

rollinslow wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:24 pm
packetloss wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:36 pm
mattr wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:41 pm
Mail any manufacturer of any size and you'll get pretty much the same response.
Not Specialized. They are pretty much cutting out rim brake versions. For now they offer some frames as rim brake, but not full bikes. I had a discussion with them about this and their argument was the industry is going toward disc brakes.
It is really that Specialized is moving to discs only because it will have the chance to generate a more substantial revenue stream where consumers invest in more expensive bikes, new sets of wheels and other components as well as pay for more expensive maintenance services. If this was my business I would convert everyone to discs as well.

This opportunity to turn everyone onto a disc bike is the best thing since carbon. For a typical road bike I am perfectly content and safe riding in the wet, dry, down 13000ft mountains with zero concerns.
double edge sword, they will also lose profit because people will be replacing their $2000 carbon wheelset less often, $40 rotor vs $900 Enve rim.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

The whole wearing out carbon rims argument has been way overplayed. How many people do you know running rim brake carbon rims have actually worn out their carbon rims from normal wear and tear? They are much harder and more durable in that regard than alloy rims. And for that matter how many alloy rims have you actually worn out in the past from just wear and tear? This was an argument used early on about an advantage of discs. It really isn’t that valid unless you are truly wearing out your rims pretty regularly. I know I’m not and don’t know anyone who is. I’m sure you can find a few in the internet, however. The way some people go on you would think they’re wearing out a set of rims every month or so. I still have my first set of carbon Boras from 2010 that are perfectly fine.
It’s no secret that Specialized would like the rim brake market to just be dead. I think it’s somewhat of an embarrassment to them that by now it’s still alive and well. And to finally get their pros to use discs they just stopped making rim brake models. End of discussion. No more choice. So there. Ok. Thank you Specialized.
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youjettisonme
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:38 am

by youjettisonme

Lewn777 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:51 am
After using mechanical and hydraulic disk brakes on motos, MTBs and CX bikes for over 20 years I hate the idea of disk brakes on a road bike. Marketing department driven marginal gains in the wet only.

Direct mount brakes, wheel rim surfaces adn rim brake blocks are still evolving.

I've got Shimano Dua-Ace on DT Swiss alloy rims, disk brakes are not better in the dry, you're just adding weight and complication for absolutely no reason, couldn't ask for better power or modulation. It's the 26inch-to 27.5inch MTB wheel American/Taiwanese manufacturer driven money grab 2.0. Most people shouting loudly for disk brakes are simply suffering from post purchase rationalization or are seeing psychological benefits. Why you'd seek add weight and complication to your bike for such marginal gains is beyond me.

Sorry to be so aggressive in my opinion, but I'm sick of this.
I love all the people who claim to be "sick of it". Literally no one is forcing you to buy it. No one if forcing you to buy anything at all. All of these retro grouch traditionalists, just turned off that someone else could like something they don't. Makes zero sense.

That said, your take on performance is also hot garbage. As someone who rode for 6 years then raced for another 8 years, I've now been on disc for two years. I will never go back. If you live in a hilly and/or mountainous region, it's a HUGE advantage, period. The modulation is sooo much better than rim brakes, and you can slow and stop on steep descents using one finger. Also huge.

Last year was the first year I did the Eastern Sierras for a week, and being able to stop so easily on a 25 mile descent through switchbacks is a big deal as well. When I come back from a long ride, my hands/fingers/wrists, etc. aren't sore like they were prior.

I have nothing against calipers, and similarly, you need not have anything against a product you don't care about. Why try to convince strangers otherwise? To what ends?

youjettisonme
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:38 am

by youjettisonme

Calnago wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:13 pm
The whole wearing out carbon rims argument has been way overplayed. How many people do you know running rim brake carbon rims have actually worn out their carbon rims from normal wear and tear? They are much harder and more durable in that regard than alloy rims. And for that matter how many alloy rims have you actually worn out in the past from just wear and tear? This was an argument used early on about an advantage of discs. It really isn’t that valid unless you are truly wearing out your rims pretty regularly. I know I’m not and don’t know anyone who is. I’m sure you can find a few in the internet, however. The way some people go on you would think they’re wearing out a set of rims every month or so. I still have my first set of carbon Boras from 2010 that are perfectly fine.
It’s no secret that Specialized would like the rim brake market to just be dead. I think it’s somewhat of an embarrassment to them that by now it’s still alive and well. And to finally get their pros to use discs they just stopped making rim brake models. End of discussion. No more choice. So there. Ok. Thank you Specialized.
Teammate went through THREE sets of Enve's on steep descents. This really depends on where you live, the kind of riding you do, and your weight. I'm not a heavy rider, but I've ruined two sets, as I delaminated one wheel and completely torched another by wearing the pads done to the housing, another huge issue with carbon hoops and calipers. And alloy rims? Those also wear out after about 3 years. Just had my buddy ruin her rear hoop which now needs replacement. Not uncommon at all if you put in big miles.

These argumets are EXCELLENT for those who liver in flatter areas or don't ride big miles, but for others, disc brakes are a huge improvement, period.

MyM3Coupe
Posts: 212
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:32 pm

by MyM3Coupe

Calnago wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:13 pm
to finally get their pros to use discs they just stopped making rim brake models. End of discussion. No more choice. So there. Ok. Thank you Specialized.
Brilliant post, and I so agree. Specialized is a trash company and I’d never own anything they make. And yes, this crap about “wearing out” rims of any sort is hilarious. The marketing folks can be smart; they sold aero carbon wheels to the masses who will not benefit 1% from them less they ride 25-30 mph at the perfect yaw angle. Fools.

by Weenie


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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

Disc brakes, in their current incarnations, aren't aero. I'm sure we all guessed that. The magnitude of the difference is fairly significant.

"We've measured a 16% increase in wheel drag between a disc-braked wheelset and a standard wheelset", Jean-Paul told us. "We performed a direct back to back test of the Zipp 303FC in standard version and disc brake version, for our own competitor comparison purposes. That 16% is a constant offset in the performance curve across the entire cross wind angle range."

So there's work to be done there, but how much can actually be done? The extra drag essentially comes from three sources. The rotor itself adds drag, and because disc wheels need more spokes to cope with braking forces there's more drag there too. On top of that, a disc hub contains more material and needs to be built to withstand torque across the hub body, as the braking forces are on one side only. Because of that, the hub body is generally bigger and that increases drag as well.

What can be done about those three sources of extra drag? In reality, probably not a huge amount, and disc systems will likely continue to be at a disadvantage in terms of aerodynamics. So if you want to be as slippery as possible, it's rim brakes for the time being. And hide them, if you can.

https://road.cc/content/feature/213876- ... ind-tunnel
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