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Kumppa
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by Kumppa

Have used lot of time to find out how AdH geometry is designed and would it be good for me. Couple page backward someone mentioned Scylon geo is designed 0 setback is working like 20mm setback so propably this have same kind of idea. Can't go and test it becouse we don't have dealer in this country.

Atm riding M-size Parlee with 25mm setback and it's perfect. Iam not very familiar with geocharts and have to say Time's chart isn't very easy to start with. Both M-size AdH and Parlee have 383 reach but not sure if I would get saddle position perfect. Using Lupina if that matter.

Taking advices from anyone with more knowledge. Do you think I could get saddle position looking good? :noidea:

Parlee
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Alpe d´Huez
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by Weenie


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kgt
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by kgt

In the case of Alpe d'Huez you should calculate the geometry with their non setback seatpost. This chart from Time Japan might help:

Image

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kgt
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by kgt

Effective top tube is 545mm on Parlee and 555mm on AdH. Since Parlee has a 73,5 angle and AdH a 73 my guess is that you will roughly have the same fit considering that you use a 25mm setback on the Parlee.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

@Kummpa: When it comes to Time's geo charts, one very well versed in geometry could be led to a totally erroneous conclusion regarding fit and setup. And since it's your saddle position that you're most concerned about, this is where their charts are just wrong. Doesn't matter if you're looking at the chart from Japan or from Time's French website, the numbers are the same. The Alpe d'Huez shares it's geometry with the Skylon. They are identical. Oh, by the way, when you say "setback of 25mm is perfect", I'm going to assume you mean a seatpost offset of 25mm and not a saddle setback of 25mm (very different things, the saddle setback being the horizontal distance from a vertical line through the bottom bracket to the nose of your saddle). Ok, with that assumption made...

Here's the problem, and as you may have noted in @leej88's post previously, he also ran into this exact issue, as did I and others I have come across....

Time's published seat tube angles are simply incorrect, not misprints, simply not accurate. For example, in my size (XL), they publish a seat tube angle of 73 degrees, same as for your size (M). However, the seat tube angle is actually 71.5 degrees, or very close to it. I know that for seat tube angles in my size (e.g., Trek and Colnago both have seat tube angles of 72.8 degrees), that a seatpost with an offset of 20mm will allow clamping of the saddle rails at almost dead center. I like that, both aesthetically and functionally since having to clamp a saddle's rails at one extreme or another puts a lot of added stress on the structure. If I were to look at other frames, with this information I could tell very quickly whether they would work or not from this perspective. And if I were to be looking at Time's geo charts, one of things I would zero in on would be that relationship of seat tube angle and seatpost offset. If I take their published numbers at face value, and see a seat tube angle of 73 degrees, even steeper than I have, then combine it with a zero offset post (the only one available for the skylon for example), that would pretty much have me ruling out the bike straight away, because even if I could get the saddle in the right position, it would have to be clamped pretty much as far forward on the rails as possible, if it would even be possible. I think in @Leej88's case, this in fact was what he was after, and could have been a reason for going with the Time, except that he found out, as did his fitters, that this didn't work out the way it should have because the numbers published aren't correct. And he ended up having to clamp his saddle as far back on the rails as was possible. No fault of him. No fault of his fitters. It's the fault of bad numbers on the geo chart and knoweldgeable fitters assuming they are what they publish.

So, back to my case. Where I would have ruled out the TIME initially, once built up and the saddle set to my correct height and setback, the rails, even with the zero offset post and steeper seattube angle were clamped very close to center, perfectly acceptable. But this should not have been the case if I were to have just trusted the numbers in TIME's geo chart to be that way. This was not my bike, so it didn't matter, but it did allow me to really analyze and fully understand the nuances of recommending a Time frame to someone else and the adjustments I'd have to make to be able to compare apples to apples with other frames.

Now, in your case... let's get the reach thing out of the way first. Reach is only comparable at equivalent stack heights. The stack on your Parlee (assuming regular not "high"), is 545mm, versus the stack height on the TIME (M) of 562mm, so 17mm difference. A good rule of thumb is that for every 10mm of stack height the reach changes by 3mm. So, on the TIME, the comparable reach is around say, 5mm longer than your Parlee. Done. Use that in your analysis as you will.

Top Tube Length... On your Parlee, it just lists a Top Tube Length of 545mm, and since a lot of Parlees are sloping I'm going to assume that's an actual top tube length (because it doesn't say otherwise), which is not directly comparable to the Time's "effective" top tube length of 555mm. However, if you were to translate that presumably actual Parlee tt length of 545mm to an effective top tube length, you could probably add another centimeter or so (depending on slope) to it in order to make it comparable. So I'd normally say it's close, except for that fact that since TIME chooses to publish a much steeper seat tube angle than it actutally is, this also has the effect of rendering their effective top tube length to be shorter than it effectively is if one was trying to compare to other frames. How much shorter... I'd say between 5-8mm shorter depedning on the frame size you're looking at.

So, let's just say that you can get close in that regard, which I which I think you can. Then there is the fact that due to the design of the seatrail clamp, there is relatively little fore and aft adjustment available, compared to seatrail clamps with a more tradiational design. This is just the nature of these types of clamps, so it pays to take a little extra care in ensuring you will be able to get the setup you want.

I can't say for certain, but if you are talking about using a 25mm offset seatpost, and are concerned that the TIME just wouldn't allow you to fit your saddle properly, then you'll probably find that in the end it will be ok, using their zero offset post. I know it's counterintuitive, but it is what it is. You can ask TIME to explain, I'd like to hear it too.

What I've just said above relates to the Alpe d'Huez 01 model, not the 21, which uses a standard 27.2 seatpost. I don't know if the 21 model is exactly the same geometry or not.

Good luck.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

Kumppa
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by Kumppa

Thank you Calnago. Yes I was talking 25mm offset on Parlee and 01 frame. Every conclusion what you did was correct and helped me alot.

Hopefully I can fit my saddle properly and enought backward becouse I just pulled trigger on 2018 Alpe d´Huez Ulteam. I would't pay any extra to get aktiv fork but it come with it as it's a sale frame and price is right. I can live it even it's little bit odd looking but hopefully I can feel it on our harsh roads. I still have 2 weeks time to return it if it don't feel right or I don't like it. Before assempling I'll measure it with saddle and handlebar and let my LBS see it before they are taking care of it.

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kgt
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by kgt

@ Kumppa
TIME's geometry charts have been discussed before. Calnago only looks at numbers and not at the numbers in relation to the actual drawing where everything is clear. I aready explained how it works. The projection of seatpost angle touches the front end of the seat clamp and not its center.
So, you may feel puzzled and you may say that their charts suck but their charts are rather exact. We are not talking about steel frames with 1 inch straight tubes. Things are more complicated. For some reason the guys at TIME do it their way by keep using this geometry for years. See:

Image

Image

Considering Parlee 545 is the effective top tube. What's the point of publishing a random sloping top tube?
http://parleecycles.com/wp-content/uplo ... -Chart.pdf

Anyway, I am sure that the frame will fit you fine. It just follows a classic geometry in practice.
Keep also in mind that AdH is slightly more aggresive than Scylon. For example the headtube length is the same, in theory, but the headset is different so it allows for a bigger drop.
Last edited by kgt on Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

I look at everything @Kgt.
And don’t get me started on the Alpe D’Huez’s implementation of their Slowset Headset, which with the new buried design, has become the absolute slowest and most tedious headset to adjust on the market. Did they forget the marketing meeting when they all sat around trying to come up with a name that they could call this abomination... “Quickset”. Lol.
As it is now, the only way you can access that manhole cover is to remove the stem from the steertube, all the spacers, and finally the top cover. Then, since it’s kind of buried you have to angle the lever bars in there and have even less leverage than before in trying to undo the thing. Such a poor proprietary design, which has evolved into the truly slowest headset to adjust on the market. I wonder what their new salespeople say when they get asked “How come you call your headset “Quickset”? The sound of crickets might follow as an answer.
Ok, since I’m here, let’s also take a look at that new seat “collar” on the Alpe d’Huez which doesn’t take too much looking to see where all the stresses are landing, all the stresses of one’s body weight landing directly against a piece of carbon being held by two screws bonded into the frame. Unlike a wedge type, if that loosens a bit or there is any slippage at all, it doesn’t get tighter. And if their bonded in bolts ever get damaged or the threads wear out, there’s no just ordering a new seat collar as its part of the frame. Ugh, how I hate those types of designs. You’d think they’d have looked at others in the past for a hint that they don’t work very well in the long run.
Image

And as for publishing both actual and effective top tube lengths, I agree that the only relevant one is the effective, or virtual, horizontal length but some manufacturers still list both, and there was a time when the effective top tube length was an afterthought. Now it's finally reversed thank goodness. But for completeness you better verify what someone is asking. But even still, given TIME's geo numbers, it makes it impossible to just do a quick apples to apples comparisons with other manufacturers' frames. Given that Parlee is using effective top tube length, I'd suggest to @Kumppa to take an even closer look at things and how they may pan out in the final setup.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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kgt
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by kgt

Calnago, we all know your hate about everything related to TIME. We don't need more of it, thanks. There are many other threads that you can enjoy.

moonoi
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by moonoi

kgt wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:56 am
Calnago, we all know your hate about everything related to TIME. We don't need more of it, thanks. There are many other threads that you can enjoy.
It's not really hate though is it?

Its a well thought out and reasoned response to the issues he and others have found, which you may not like, but others here appreciate.

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kgt
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by kgt

No, it's not as you say it is. When someone sees issues where such issues do not exist it is neither reasonable nor well thought.

He keeps on writing about 'wrong' Time geometry. I explained through Time's drawings how everything makes sense. He keeps on saying the same thing over and over again.
See what Raoul Luescher has to say about Time headsets. They are a step ahead in terms of engineering and he explains why. The guy knows a few things more than Calnago or any of us in this forum.
Considering the setpost clamp. Time uses the same design in their stems for many years. Not a single issue, no broken bolts, nothing that Calnago makes in his head.


m4k1
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by m4k1

one question still always remains in my head though: does calnago now like the quickset headset or not? i think i will never know the answer

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Calnago
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by Calnago

m4k1 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:59 pm
one question still always remains in my head though: does calnago now like the quickset headset or not? i think i will never know the answer
Ok, I just about spit up my coffee laughing at this post, as I'm sure you can't be serious. Did you see my last post above 5 or so up? Well, if not, let me reiterate very clearly, and thankyou for asking :) . I hate the entire Slow Squared System (my latest nickname for the "Quickset" headset. I now call it Slow Squared, instead of just Slowset, because with the latest incarnation in the Alpe D'huez model, they've now buried it under a top cover which makes access not only sloooow, but the most cumbersome of any modern headset I can think of. And you will need to adjust these things, since the waxy substance on the bearings wears leaving you with a loose knocking headset. Ok, "hate" is a strong word, so no big deal, but I just ask... why? So, off comes the top cap, and the stem, and all spacers and finally that top cover so that you can shove the little crowbar thingies in there at an even weirder angle than before, and loosen it off, or tighten it up. If it served any useful purpose I might give it some slack. Perhaps their steertubes are just too soft to even cope with the interface between the steertube and bearings, I don't know... but that is truly the only reason i can think of why they still continue to bond a threaded alloy sleeve to the steertube in order to make this thing work. It is not better. No other manufacturer needs to do it, and steertube carbon layups have come a long way since Time started this thing. It's unnecessary, but if you want a clunker of a fork, look no further than Time's own 550gram Activ fork.
I suspect Time's days are quite numbered in the actual frame manufacturing business anyway. Owned by Rossignol, poor perforiming from a financial perspective, and many of the staff at Time's former operations have already been reassigned. Perhaps they can resurrect their shoe business.
Hope that answers your question... now you know.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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kgt
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by kgt

lol
This guy just loves to hate Time.

tarmackev
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by tarmackev

kgt wrote:lol
This guy just loves to hate Time.
@Calnago has a good point though.

Personally I think they’re beautiful bikes and with a few slight changes they’d be spectacular. As it is they’re not quite there yet for all the reasons Calnago pointed out.
I totally understand your passion though kgt.


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by Weenie


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