N0.22 Titanium

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
edwardk
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:30 pm

by edwardk

I have a 2016 Great Divide. I like it very much. The bike has been improved since I bought mine — the T47 BB and the new fork in particular. (To my great frustration, the Enve fork on my bike tops out at a 25mm tire. I’ve ordered the new 22 Bikes fork.) I think that it’s fair to call it more of a mile eater than a sprinter, but that’s exactly how 22 Bikes positions it.

Really I doubt that any of us could tell the difference among all the great brands mentioned, assuming we were comparing bikes designed for the same purpose. I’d like to suggest that the geometry of the stock frame is the most important differentiation — which is closer to your ideal stack and reach, for example? And then like all of you I’d ignore that and choose the best looking one.

MoPho
Posts: 652
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:48 pm
Location: NorCal

by MoPho

Imaking20 wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:02 am
Extra $2k is not a small sum of money - and who says it's the best? NAHBS certainly doesn't. $4k for a frame is already a silly amount.

If you're looking for a titanium bike to compete in the labratory tests against carbon - look no further than Litespeed. Having spent a good bit of time on a T2, I can say without hesitation it is an out and out race bike that happens to be made of titanium. The problem for me was it did the lab so well that it certainly sacrificed some of what made titanium so appealing. I wholeheartedly enjoyed climbing on the T2 more than the Evo Hi Mod that followed it, and there is a buzz you feel in your feet on every bike that's not titanium that's hard to describe or appreciate unless you ride carbon and titanium back to back. That said, my old ass Dogma is absolutely more comfortable than the T2. And I prefer the descending manners thanks to a less vanilla 73/73 STA and HTA.

I can't provide firsthand experience on riding the other two bikes in the OPs list. What I can share is that I've started down the custom path with No22 twice now and the team over there is fantastic. Really. I owe those guys some of my money one of these days as they've been so helpful and responsive.

The above review of the Great Divide is quite interesting - probably the first negative review I've seen of a No22 - which I actually appreciate. That said, if the sporting criteria is what @jadedaid is after - I think it's a waste of money to spend the Moots (assuming RSL) premium over a Litespeed. The latter will be lighter, cheaper, a comparable aesthetic, and also brings an outstanding build quality.

Moots has won awards at NAHBS, but the criteria at the show is not based on ride qualities, so it doesn't mean much to this discussion. I just came from the show and the awards were based on aesthetics and innovation more than anything. And the No22 bikes were spectacular that's for sure.

Your discription of the T2 seems like all the reasons not to buy one if you are looking for what titanium has to offer, and having looked/considered (but not ridden) the Litespeeds, they are definitely not as nice in terms of welds and aesthetics to the Moots IMO. And I would assume it's the T1SL disc frame and fork set that would be the direct comparison to the Moots Vamoots RSL disc and it is only like $300 cheaper (and the Mosaic RT-1 you just bought is similarly priced new). That said, I agree, the Moots is crazy money but they sell pretty well at that price so maybe it says something. I'll let you know in a month or so 8)


Another interesting Ti bike at NAHBS was Haley Cycles, https://haleycycles.com
Can't say how they ride or are to deal with, but they sure were purdy.

.

by Weenie


rollinslow
Posts: 379
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:25 am

by rollinslow

Imaking20 wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:02 am
Extra $2k is not a small sum of money - and who says it's the best? NAHBS certainly doesn't. $4k for a frame is already a silly amount.

lol you have to be joking right? Moots wasn't even at the NAHBS this year. That's like saying Baum is no good because they didn't go to NAHBS this year. They had a bike displayed for painters Black Magic. Btw, most Moots frames are more than 4k anyway.
Moots Vamoots RSL (2019)-Dura Ace 9100
Cervelo S1 (2010)-Super Record 12 (viewtopic.php?f=10&t=161577)
Kestrel RT700 (2008)-Dura Ace 9000
Mosaic GT-1 (2020)-arrived, in process of building

romanmoser
Posts: 461
Joined: Sun May 06, 2018 8:30 pm

by romanmoser

Your discription of the T2 seems like all the reasons not to buy one if you are looking for what titanium has to offer, and having looked/considered (but not ridden) the Litespeeds, they are definitely not as nice in terms of welds and aesthetics to the Moots IMO. And I would assume it's the T1SL disc frame and fork set that would be the direct comparison to the Moots Vamoots RSL disc and it is only like $300 cheaper


Price is what you paid , Value is what you get .
Beadblasted finish can affect the perception of weld '' cleaness '' I would say
That said they are exactly designing and producing with the same mindset

MY OPINION

You can find litespeed in sold even recent one ( on litespeed site for example T3 , T2 rim disc , T1 , T1SL rim disc , or on ebay I've seen T1SL not my size sold from an international seller for 2000 USD the frame ... in different sizes , rims and disc brakes ) , that's crazy value . Someone recently sold a litespeed T1SL frameset for 1800 USD on a smaller forum .

That won't happen with a moots , and I respect that . Saying it's better ? How ?
It has a certain caché I will agree


Litespeed is more shaping stuff , getting crazy weight for ti while still being raceable
Moots more classic looking except slooping but hey most production frames have ( too much according to my needs ) slooping

morrisond
Posts: 1006
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:34 pm

by morrisond

I have had a few Ti bikes (Mosaic's) - while beautiful I never got that snappy feeling either.

I'm currently riding a custom Steel Bike built by Saltair using Columbus HSS tubing with an ENVE Road Disc Fork and clearance for 34 tires.

It goes when you stomp on it and feels like a nice stiff Carbon Race Bike. The weight bare was within 50 grams of the Mosaic's (Ti gets pretty Heavy in bigger 58/60 sizes when you are trying to make them stiff).

I think Ti is a great material for an Gravel/Adventure bike - not so much for race bikes when you want them to be really responsive.

I doubt the Moots RSL would be any different. It looks like it uses 22 Chainstays which I don't think are stiff enough. All that butting and relieveing aren't going to help either. If I did a Ti Road bike again it would have to have 25mm Chainstays which are somewhat rare. I know Baum uses them on bigger Caliper bikes (not sure about Disc) and a company like Wittson will do it.

kode54
Posts: 1963
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 9:39 pm

by kode54

Hope that goes well. I like riding the Moots more than my other bikes...especially since the roads are beat to hell after all the winter road salt and all. Paired with a wide wheel...it rides great over all the potholes.
MoPho wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:01 am
kode54 wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:22 pm
Don't test ride the Moots...or else you may end up with one and a lighter wallet. I have the Vamoots Disc RSL
Now you tell me... :shock:


(Finalizing my order on a Vamoots RSL disc next week)


.
- Factor 02 VAM Disc + DA9170 + Enve 4.5AR CK CL hubs
- Moots Vamoots Disc RSL Titanium + DA9170 + Enve 3.4AR CK CL hubs
- Factor LS Disc + DA9170 + Enve G23 CK CL hubs <-- incoming
- Allied Able + DA9170 + Enve G27 CK CL hubs --> outgoing

romanmoser
Posts: 461
Joined: Sun May 06, 2018 8:30 pm

by romanmoser

morrisond wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:15 pm
I have had a few Ti bikes (Mosaic's) - while beautiful I never got that snappy feeling either.

I'm currently riding a custom Steel Bike built by Saltair using Columbus HSS tubing with an ENVE Road Disc Fork and clearance for 34 tires.

It goes when you stomp on it and feels like a nice stiff Carbon Race Bike. The weight bare was within 50 grams of the Mosaic's (Ti gets pretty Heavy in bigger 58/60 sizes when you are trying to make them stiff).

I think Ti is a great material for an Gravel/Adventure bike - not so much for race bikes when you want them to be really responsive.

I doubt the Moots RSL would be any different. It looks like it uses 22 Chainstays which I don't think are stiff enough. All that butting and relieveing aren't going to help either. If I did a Ti Road bike again it would have to have 25mm Chainstays which are somewhat rare. I know Baum uses them on bigger Caliper bikes (not sure about Disc) and a company like Wittson will do it.

Well Litespeed can ... :mrgreen:
Firefly too with the #419 they produce a L frame with not much slooping PF30 , 44mm headtube , fat chainstays for what 1200 1300 gr ...
Agree about larger chainstays , dt , seat tube also to have good power transmission ( albeit I love 27,2mm for flex confort )

Not interested in steel personnaly even if some are nice
Stainless steel ( Reynolds and Columbus ) interest me tough
But it's so thin , I would have to see one that has been ridden on gravel cx or less than ideal roads before I commit ...
Not love for dings dents that sort of things

MoPho
Posts: 652
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:48 pm
Location: NorCal

by MoPho

romanmoser wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:56 pm

Price is what you paid , Value is what you get .
Beadblasted finish can affect the perception of weld '' cleaness '' I would say
That said they are exactly designing and producing with the same mindset

MY OPINION

You can find litespeed in sold even recent one ( on litespeed site for example T3 , T2 rim disc , T1 , T1SL rim disc , or on ebay I've seen T1SL not my size sold from an international seller for 2000 USD the frame ... in different sizes , rims and disc brakes ) , that's crazy value . Someone recently sold a litespeed T1SL frameset for 1800 USD on a smaller forum .

That won't happen with a moots , and I respect that . Saying it's better ? How ?
It has a certain caché I will agree


Litespeed is more shaping stuff , getting crazy weight for ti while still being raceable
Moots more classic looking except slooping but hey most production frames have ( too much according to my needs ) slooping

Used and clearance prices vary, MSRP is consistant for discussion purposes. I am paying nowhere near retail for mine, but I wouldn't assume someone else got the same arrangement so can't use that price to argue value.
Other than details and aesthetics I can't tell you one rides better than the other having not ridden them both for comparison, but the fact that you point out there are lots of used Litespeeds for low prices vs Moots (or other brands) tells me people don't like them as much. :noidea:

The same arguments can be made with carbon too, is a Pinarello $4k better than a Giant? Perception is everything I guess




.


.

romanmoser
Posts: 461
Joined: Sun May 06, 2018 8:30 pm

by romanmoser

MSRP prices never paid that too :D

Perception matters ,
Could be also because moots probably produce less frames each year ?

Obviously the Pinarello is better because 12 sizes are available , italian bb threaded and nearly no slooping
kidding giant makes quality product too even if less '' hype ''

MoPho
Posts: 652
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:48 pm
Location: NorCal

by MoPho

romanmoser wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:20 pm
MSRP prices never paid that too :D

If we are going to talk about used and inconsistant prices paid, then referencing that the Moots is $2k more is... moot :P



.


.

rollinslow
Posts: 379
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:25 am

by rollinslow

romanmoser wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:20 pm
MSRP prices never paid that too :D

Perception matters ,
Could be also because moots probably produce less frames each year ?

Obviously the Pinarello is better because 12 sizes are available , italian bb threaded and nearly no slooping
kidding giant makes quality product too even if less '' hype ''
Objectively, Moots has secured Ti contracts with the best in the business. The metal comes from Oregon. The available supply of top-grade Ti is low as it is mostly acquired by the military and aerospace industry. The leftover supply can be sold back to companies like those who make bikes. This matters a lot, and is one reason why companies like Moots can charge a premium as you are actually getting the best of the best right down to the manufacturing process of titanium itself. When it comes to engineering and design, I would argue custom is the way to go for Ti and the knowledge of the builder for getting the bike to ride the way you like it is critical.
Moots Vamoots RSL (2019)-Dura Ace 9100
Cervelo S1 (2010)-Super Record 12 (viewtopic.php?f=10&t=161577)
Kestrel RT700 (2008)-Dura Ace 9000
Mosaic GT-1 (2020)-arrived, in process of building

szazbo
Posts: 94
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:26 am

by szazbo

Going the Ti route, check out Bill Holland at http://hollandcycles.com/holland-exogrid/ Not everyone has one and they are very unique. Bill will alter the tubing diameters and thickness to what your desires are and including 1 inch chainstays. There is also the option of a travel bike using Hollands version of the Ritchey Breakaway. Been in business for over 40 years building bikes. Unlike the poster that is going to sell his No.22 I still get excited to ride my Exogrid and routinely choose it over one of my carbon bikes. Impeccable welds and craftmanship and custom sized for you. Still a 6 week wait though

morrisond
Posts: 1006
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:34 pm

by morrisond

romanmoser wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:41 pm
morrisond wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:15 pm
I have had a few Ti bikes (Mosaic's) - while beautiful I never got that snappy feeling either.

I'm currently riding a custom Steel Bike built by Saltair using Columbus HSS tubing with an ENVE Road Disc Fork and clearance for 34 tires.

It goes when you stomp on it and feels like a nice stiff Carbon Race Bike. The weight bare was within 50 grams of the Mosaic's (Ti gets pretty Heavy in bigger 58/60 sizes when you are trying to make them stiff).

I think Ti is a great material for an Gravel/Adventure bike - not so much for race bikes when you want them to be really responsive.

I doubt the Moots RSL would be any different. It looks like it uses 22 Chainstays which I don't think are stiff enough. All that butting and relieveing aren't going to help either. If I did a Ti Road bike again it would have to have 25mm Chainstays which are somewhat rare. I know Baum uses them on bigger Caliper bikes (not sure about Disc) and a company like Wittson will do it.

Well Litespeed can ... :mrgreen:
Firefly too with the #419 they produce a L frame with not much slooping PF30 , 44mm headtube , fat chainstays for what 1200 1300 gr ...
Agree about larger chainstays , dt , seat tube also to have good power transmission ( albeit I love 27,2mm for flex confort )

Not interested in steel personnaly even if some are nice
Stainless steel ( Reynolds and Columbus ) interest me tough
But it's so thin , I would have to see one that has been ridden on gravel cx or less than ideal roads before I commit ...
Not love for dings dents that sort of things
There is no way a Firefly is 1200-1300 grams with PF30 BB, 44mm Headtube, big chainstays and there dropouts (albeit they are beautiful) in anything smaller than a 50.

Think more like 1600-1700 grams at least with no paint for a size Large.

My 58cm Mosaic R1 with 44mm HT, PF30 BB(they use the same Paragon parts as Firefly for both), lighter dropouts than Firefly and all tubes butted was close to 1900 grams with 3/4 paint, similar unpainted RT-1's at Blacksmith were 1600-1700 grams.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mosaiccyc ... 1158071946

romanmoser
Posts: 461
Joined: Sun May 06, 2018 8:30 pm

by romanmoser

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=149508&p=1372540&h ... 9#p1372540

don't know where I saw that frame weight or imagined it
it has been sold but i'd like to know that frame weight

Minimum 500 gr more than a litespeed T1SL in the same size frame so
Or maybe 600 700

by Weenie


Imaking20
Posts: 2394
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:19 am

by Imaking20

morrisond wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:43 pm
romanmoser wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:41 pm
morrisond wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:15 pm
I have had a few Ti bikes (Mosaic's) - while beautiful I never got that snappy feeling either.

I'm currently riding a custom Steel Bike built by Saltair using Columbus HSS tubing with an ENVE Road Disc Fork and clearance for 34 tires.

It goes when you stomp on it and feels like a nice stiff Carbon Race Bike. The weight bare was within 50 grams of the Mosaic's (Ti gets pretty Heavy in bigger 58/60 sizes when you are trying to make them stiff).

I think Ti is a great material for an Gravel/Adventure bike - not so much for race bikes when you want them to be really responsive.

I doubt the Moots RSL would be any different. It looks like it uses 22 Chainstays which I don't think are stiff enough. All that butting and relieveing aren't going to help either. If I did a Ti Road bike again it would have to have 25mm Chainstays which are somewhat rare. I know Baum uses them on bigger Caliper bikes (not sure about Disc) and a company like Wittson will do it.

Well Litespeed can ... :mrgreen:
Firefly too with the #419 they produce a L frame with not much slooping PF30 , 44mm headtube , fat chainstays for what 1200 1300 gr ...
Agree about larger chainstays , dt , seat tube also to have good power transmission ( albeit I love 27,2mm for flex confort )

Not interested in steel personnaly even if some are nice
Stainless steel ( Reynolds and Columbus ) interest me tough
But it's so thin , I would have to see one that has been ridden on gravel cx or less than ideal roads before I commit ...
Not love for dings dents that sort of things
There is no way a Firefly is 1200-1300 grams with PF30 BB, 44mm Headtube, big chainstays and there dropouts (albeit they are beautiful) in anything smaller than a 50.

Think more like 1600-1700 grams at least with no paint for a size Large.

My 58cm Mosaic R1 with 44mm HT, PF30 BB(they use the same Paragon parts as Firefly for both), lighter dropouts than Firefly and all tubes butted was close to 1900 grams with 3/4 paint, similar unpainted RT-1's at Blacksmith were 1600-1700 grams.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mosaiccyc ... 1158071946
Must have been some very heavy paint! No. 22 quoted me 1450g for a Great Divide. I've seen a few RT1s on here under 1400g (granted, some of them baby sized). My 54cm T2 was 1238g.


In response to the comment above about military and aerospace having priority for titanium supply - and limited availability coming back to bike suppliers - could just as well be a marketing line for Litespeed! They developed titanium parts for a Mars "Curiosity" rover - which required they have complete control over their entire supply chain. I suspect it's very unlikely that any bicycle manufacturer honestly has a higher quality titanium than what Litespeed offers (nor do I actually believe it matters). This is a big reason why I can't understand spending thousands more on ANY titanium frame (that absolutely includes Mosaic, for the record). And when's the last time Moots offered brand new frames for $1650?

Post Reply