Had a bike fit ,how long needed to confirm fit?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
Hexsense
Posts: 935
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am

by Hexsense

dim wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:14 pm


I've just raised my saddle by 15mm .... I found that if the saddle is too low, my legs never have a chance to relax the muscles when I pedal (they are always in 'tension' .... do a 100 mile ride, and you will struggle to walk the next day

I don't know if that makes sense, but thats the best way that I can describe it.... when the saddle is in the correct position, on the downstroke, your leg relaxes for a split second
Really? I thought disconnecting of power output (lack of tension) is a sign that saddle is too high and legs cannot put out power in that extension anymore (or just reduce amount of power it can do).
So you think lower dead spot where legs become relax is not a bad thing?

Maybe i can try in the next off season.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Any feeling of increased tension with a lower saddle is self-induced, probably from what the user/cyclist perceives as knee instability. So they end up focusing too much on knee tracking and/or ankling instead of simply using their larger muscles and relaxing the leg from the knee down.

Lowering the saddle can decrease leverage if knee angles become too extreme, that’s why a lower saddle position is usually offset by increased setback.
Last edited by TobinHatesYou on Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

by Weenie


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nycebo
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by nycebo

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:04 pm
A chair or sofa isn’t comparable to a saddle. Your weight is being supported by the entire buttocks in those cases.

Also your analysis of how riders get aero is pretty off. Riders (like me) with good flexibility who rotate their pelvis forward are even more prone to perineal pressures. Our soft tissues end up rotating downward and our gravity shifts forward more dramatically. It’s the riders who bend/arch their backs, keeping their pelvis more upright who don’t need as much saddle tilt. I have my SMP pointing around 4deg downward.
Mate, the chair/sofa was for illustrative purposes only. I know it's not a saddle.

As for your second statement, that's precisely what I intimated. I just view that as more appropriate for pros doing TTs and triathletes since they stay aero for hours at a time. But it all comes at a cost. That's why you need all these "adjustments" to your saddle, as you rightfully intimated.

Anyway, deviated well of thread topic. Back to the show....

Jugi
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Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:10 am

by Jugi

Hexsense wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:19 pm
dim wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:14 pm
I've just raised my saddle by 15mm .... I found that if the saddle is too low, my legs never have a chance to relax the muscles when I pedal (they are always in 'tension' .... do a 100 mile ride, and you will struggle to walk the next day
Really? I thought disconnecting of power output (lack of tension) is a sign that saddle is too high and legs cannot put out power in that extension anymore (or just reduce amount of power it can do).
So you think lower dead spot where legs become relax is not a bad thing?
I’ve had the same sensation as dim every once in a while. When in a static position on the bike, some weight is resting on the saddle, on the handlebars and on the pedals. When the saddle is as high as dim is describing, I feel like the pedal’s contact point becomes almost ”weightless” very briefly at the end of downstroke. Power is still produced, but the lowest third of crank revolution is pushed through in an emphasized circular motion and the muscles in charge of extending the knee joint relax for a very brief moment. It may take more out of the rider’s hips and lower back to stay stable on the saddle when their legs get so extended. If that stability is lost (either because of lacking core strength or poorly fitting saddle) it will be hard for the sit bones as well.

Everybody is different, so I wouldn’t define it as right or wrong technically.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

So once again, nycebo, why fill in the center/spine of a saddle if it is almost completely useless? Why choose a saddle that is comfortable in a limited number of positions vs one that is comfortable in a range of positions?

dim
Posts: 534
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:25 am
Location: Cambridge UK

by dim

Hexsense wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:19 pm
dim wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:14 pm


I've just raised my saddle by 15mm .... I found that if the saddle is too low, my legs never have a chance to relax the muscles when I pedal (they are always in 'tension' .... do a 100 mile ride, and you will struggle to walk the next day

I don't know if that makes sense, but thats the best way that I can describe it.... when the saddle is in the correct position, on the downstroke, your leg relaxes for a split second
Really? I thought disconnecting of power output (lack of tension) is a sign that saddle is too high and legs cannot put out power in that extension anymore (or just reduce amount of power it can do).
So you think lower dead spot where legs become relax is not a bad thing?

Maybe i can try in the next off season.
why wait till next season? .... lower your saddle by 30mm and go for a 100 mile ride with lots of hills then come back and tell us your thoughts ....
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Hexsense
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by Hexsense

dim wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:45 pm
why wait till next season? .... lower your saddle by 30mm and go for a 100 mile ride with lots of hills then come back and tell us your thoughts ....
First race i'm attending this year is coming in two days, and my races are in the span of Febuary to April almost every weekend.
Then that's end of the (road) race season for the year for me. With races coming up almost every week, I'm not going to make any big change which i can't be sure i'll get used to. I once adjusted my saddle before a crit race. It throw my weight balance off and i corner noticeably worse because i'm not used to it. I'm not risking it again.

Currently I specifically set my saddle low enough (with 165mm crank) for pedal stroke to not have any dead/relax/off spot.
I'll try raise saddle up to make my power and muscle load cut off as you describe after April.

bikeboy1tr
Posts: 392
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:19 am
Location: Southern Ontario Canada

by bikeboy1tr

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:54 am
nycebo wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:52 pm

You put into words what I've been thinking for ages.

I think most people with numbness probably don't have the standard saddle set correctly (as you said, likely way too high). The saddle manufacturers are simply serving a market that ostensibly shouldn't exist. But takes all kinds....
I disagree? Look at your anatomy. Your sitbones / ischial tuberosities and pubic rami are what you sit on. There is a lot of compressible soft tissue forward of those bony structures including your external genitalia. The nose of a saddle is largely useless as a support structure. I only really use mine when certain muscle groups are sore and I get "on the rivet" to activate other muscles. Also when I am on the rivet, my weight shifts to my feet rather than my pelvis. Other than that, I really only use the nose of a saddle as a brace for my inner thighs when cornering/descending.

This is why ISMs, Dashes, Cobbs, Powers/Stealths/copycats exist.

So why put a shell + padding where no contact with your anatomy should even be made. It makes no sense and that's why cutout saddles are now the norm...and non-cutout saddles will continue to dwindle in popularity to the point where they really will barely exist at all.
I have to agree as my wife was having a very difficult time with her Fizik Donna saddle and it even had the channel down the centre (which I think are pretty much useless), anyway she made the switch to ISM and the saddle sores went away. I have myself made the switch to SMP Composit and yes it is a hard saddle but my butt feels the same after my ride as it did before so the cut outs do work IMHO.
"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving"-Albert Einstein
2018 Colnago V2R Rim Brake
2014 Norco Threshold Disc Brake
2012 Time RXRS Ulteam Rim Brake
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bikeboy1tr
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Location: Southern Ontario Canada

by bikeboy1tr

1. Firstly, the calf muscles have to control the lever that is your foot from its hinge at the ankle to its attachment at the pedal. If you reduce the length of that lever, you reduce the energy wasted on your calf just keeping your foot stable.

2. Secondly, the bigger (heavier and stronger) the person, the harder they will push through the small interface between the pedal and the cleat. This larger force goes through the same tiny area of interface as a lightweight rider, but it puts way more stress on the metatarsals of the bigger, stronger, heavier person’s feet, leading to more “hot foot” pain if the cleat is located at the ball of the foot, and, in some cases, results in neuritis or neuroma between the joints of some of the metatarsals.

3. Thirdly, since you essentially shorten your leg length from the hip to the cleat by moving the cleat further back on the shoe, you can run a lower seat height with a more aft cleat. This results in lower aerodynamic drag and improved cornering due to a lower center of gravity, not to mention the possibility of a smaller frame size if you are in between sizes."

I tried to do this a few years ago and did it in small increments with moving the cleats rearward towards the centre of my shoe and lowering the seat height proportionally and I had nothing but knee pain both left and right. I did this over a two week period to no avail before I aborted the whole ideal. Moved my cleats forward again and no more knee pain. It doesnt work for everyone well at least not myself.
"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving"-Albert Einstein
2018 Colnago V2R Rim Brake
2014 Norco Threshold Disc Brake
2012 Time RXRS Ulteam Rim Brake
2008 Time VXR Rim Brake
2006 Ridley Crosswind Rim Brake

zefs
Posts: 438
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:40 pm

by zefs

dim wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:45 pm
why wait till next season? .... lower your saddle by 30mm and go for a 100 mile ride with lots of hills then come back and tell us your thoughts ....
If you want to try a lower or higher saddle height you don't go 30mm. The optimal max knee angle is 30-40 degrees and it's about 1mm per degree so if you are at 35 and want to try lower or higher range you would do a 5mm change in saddle height.

Not to confuse the topic starter as a bigger change was needed for him since he could be out of that range along with the hamstring issue.

zefs
Posts: 438
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:40 pm

by zefs

dim wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:45 pm
why wait till next season? .... lower your saddle by 30mm and go for a 100 mile ride with lots of hills then come back and tell us your thoughts ....
If you want to try a lower or higher saddle height you don't go 30mm. The optimal max knee angle is ~30-40 degrees and it's about 1mm per degree so if you are at 35 and want to try lower or higher range you would do a 5mm change in saddle height.

Not to confuse the topic starter as a bigger change was needed for him since he could be out of that range along with the hamstring issue.
bikeboy1tr wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:23 am
I tried to do this a few years ago and did it in small increments with moving the cleats rearward towards the centre of my shoe and lowering the seat height proportionally and I had nothing but knee pain both left and right. I did this over a two week period to no avail before I aborted the whole ideal. Moved my cleats forward again and no more knee pain. It doesnt work for everyone well at least not myself.
When you move the cleat back the foot goes forward, so if you were already too close on the bottom bracket it probably put you too much forward and your knees were getting more strain (like in TT position). That is why the saddle needs to be in the correct position (height/fore aft), everything works together.

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nycebo
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by nycebo

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:02 pm
So once again, nycebo, why fill in the center/spine of a saddle if it is almost completely useless? Why choose a saddle that is comfortable in a limited number of positions vs one that is comfortable in a range of positions?
Simple...it's cheaper.

Anyway and again, I agree that people should do what they like. There is clearly a market there to serve them.

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

Fore/aft, saddle height, what saddle etc is a can of worms.

Let's ask ourselves one thing, does anyone here believe as saddle design is based on a certain chamois or the anatomy of a cyclist?
Most of you might get that saddles are most likely not designed with a chamois in mind.

Fore/aft, imagine you use Castelli Free Aero bib shorts just as an example.
These have 15mm height under sit bones. The rest of the chamois has thickness of 12, 9, 6 and 3mm (+ the 15mm under sitbones).

Now it's pretty obvious that saddles and how they feel become very different. Actually, the outcome of your experience is saddle + chamois.

If you ride and set your saddle using underwear, then jump Castelli Free Aero, it doesn't take a genius to see how the shape and length of the saddle is getting rather off.

The only bib shorts available on the market just now, is SQ Labs One12.
These have a maximum thickness of 4mm.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
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Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)


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sockpuppet
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:38 pm

by sockpuppet

took me about 1 week of riding to get comfortable on the bike with my new fit. (saddle came up 30.5mm, which extended my reach as well).

feels great now, no complaints.

by Weenie


dricked
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by dricked

30mm!! Jeezus.

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