CAAD12 Campagnolo Groupset and Colnago C60 Campagnolo builds...

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
3Pio
Posts: 1257
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Yesterday i decide to give another chance to Deda SuperLegger but this time on C60 frame.

Before install just to put on scale shifter (i forgot to add second one, but allready measured them in this thread, so i'll put just one shift weight here)

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So get back to the handlebar... As first i tried to install ussual way (hadlebar on stem and on bike), but realized wont go easy this way..

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So i changed the way of installing.. Instead beeing on bike, and to install cables / housing that way, i tried to have it free in my hands:

1. I put the cables in the channels of the handlebars (put a bit longer length on the way to levers position). Both cables (shifting/braking)

2. Put the cables in the cables channels on levers (while levers not connected , beegin free)

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3. With cables in the levers, i installed levers on position

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4. Same for other side..

And done...

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5. I done cutting of the cables after i installed cables on the bike (for next time since i know the lengths i'll do that as first operation.


Before i install left lever/shifter i had a problems before with bolt connection metal plate to release it self and to dont have proper shifting, so this time i put some loctite in advance.. Hope will keep this screw there for many kms....



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tommasini
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Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 6:48 am
Location: Central USA
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by tommasini

You were right in your sequence for installing cables & levers......handlebar hidden channels have changed the way many of use used to do it. Now like you did we must have the cables fed into the bars - then press the levers and housings together - then install the levers to the bars. Its nearly impossible to do it the pre-channel way of mounting the levers to the bars and then trying to put the cable housings in place to the levers.

by Weenie


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Calnago
Posts: 8519
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

tommasini wrote:Its nearly impossible to do it the pre-channel way of mounting the levers to the bars and then trying to put the cable housings in place to the levers.
Yup, even this way it’s hard to ensure that the derailleur housings stay fully seated in the levers while trying to adjust and secure everything down at the same time.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

3Pio
Posts: 1257
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Calnago wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:39 pm
tommasini wrote:Its nearly impossible to do it the pre-channel way of mounting the levers to the bars and then trying to put the cable housings in place to the levers.
Yup, even this way it’s hard to ensure that the derailleur housings stay fully seated in the levers while trying to adjust and secure everything down at the same time.
After i installed everything, and adjust the levers, push the cables from one side (oposite of levers), and try to pull a little bit in the levers.. Maybe tight, but cables can move a little bit .. Even it need a lot of patience and focus.. But it was a bit challenge to me to install everything, and also complications for returning the bar back, then waiting for new one, and all birocracy around that.... Ok, i must admit that this Deda look superb on C60....

But if im ordering now with this expereince, definetely Fizik Cyrano R1 Bar (without internal routing)

3Pio
Posts: 1257
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Time for installing brakes..

And those are only part from my old groupset (on CAAD12 i put new Chorus Dual Pivot).

BTW, i had a test ride around city yesterday.. What i found is that DualPivot brake on the rear is too powerfull (or maybe im used of Single Pivot).

I really really cant understund, why someone need Disks on Road bike.. Even with those brakes, i locked the wheel few times, and front also plenty of power..

Those brakes (Record Diferential with Single Pivot on the back), and Chorus i picked (Dual Pivot on both sides), was big price difference (Record beeing twice more expensive than Chorus). If they were similar price, seem that i prefer Record Diferential Pivot version..

Hope to get used of more powerfull braking in the rear...

Get back to brake install.. Nothing spectacular here, just reweighting of this pair of brakes + bolts which ill use..

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About Colnago Cable guide.. Yes, there is orientation.. It's not simetric..

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Now crankset installation (i love the shape and look of this Crankset).

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Colnago Chain Catcher (this will be temporary here)

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This is original bolt replaced by the bolt of chain catcher

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And front deral installation..

BTW, using the Campagnolo FD tool (which fix a FD a little bit while adjusting), it's easier to adjust Chain Catcher, even they use same bolt..

1. I fix the tool under the FD and adjust FD position

2. Put credit card between (or loyality card from local supermarket) between chain catcher and chain in small ring

3. Retight everything...

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Here will go Chorus cassette 12-29


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Last edited by 3Pio on Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

3Pio
Posts: 1257
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

And on C60 goes Chorus chain, using quick link...

Just for comparation:

Brand New Record chain, precutted to proper length

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Old Chorus (and dirty chain)

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Plastic Bag weight

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Very little weight difference.. Anyway, i'll have to reweighted brand new precutted Chorus chain


The adjusting of deral's went smooth, and without problems.. I can feel a cable on rear deral. a bit tight going from small rear cogs to big (from 12 to 29), and very smooth oposite direction.. I guess this tighness is maybe becase of tight curve of integral routing, but will report again after some real outdoor test...

3Pio
Posts: 1257
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Now, since on C60 deral are working properly (at least on stand), let's get back to CAAD12 for a while...

I had a chance to take for a test ride outside....

And there is a problem.. Chain jumping, specially while i try to sprint or full power...

The jumping looked like happening on Jockey Pulley's wheels and first i thought that maybe too much grease inside and cant spindle properly..

1. I removed chain, checked them, and they are smooth .. No.. Still there is a problem.

2. We checked deral hanger.. It was just a little bit off, and we put it in place (at my LBS since i dont have tool for this).

Not source of the problem...


3. I tried to readjust everything (i spent so many hours)... Result?

Rounded B Screw head (lucky me it's cheap, so i'll find a replacement, hope will be able to unscrew).

This screw is so soft material :(

But not solution to problem..

4. Then having old cassette (15000 km on it), and misterious chain (i have put it sticker that there is 4500 km on it, keep them both cassette/chain to wear some 500-1000 km in winter/rain riding and trow them in garbage). Why misterius? I checked with wearing tool, look like brand new. Also we checked at LBS same.. Seem that probably i put in that box new chain, and cleaned old chain installed as new...

This have some logic, since ussually i have about 4500 km per chain, and on last one i had only 2900 and is totaly shot. Maybe i swaped them then by mistake.. If that happened, hope i did not damaged the cassettes i used then.


So to be sure i put other cassette (12-29) and new chain (Record)

And no, not source of the problem..


5. But i got another problem.. First time quick link snapped while i was on trainer testing.. Luckily no damage except destroyed quick link...

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Probably will return to Campy way of connecting chain after i wear last quick links..

I guess this was my mistake (beeing tired, and it was not enough light, so i guess i did not connect properly, even i was using pillars for that)

Im using quick links in last few years and this is first time this happened...



What else i can do?

Ok, let's get borrow some brand new parts from C60 (where i just installed and adjusted everything properly :( ), and try it..


I installed new Crankset first..


And... Everything smooth, no problems, shifting perfectly.. Still need to test it outside, but seem thats the source of the problem..


What im suprised.. Those chainrings have 20500 km.. Ok, i ride a lot of climbs, not so clean roads here, sometimes even cross chain (52/29 or 52/27), but expected those chainrings to last much more then this...What i expected was that bearings will need replacament.. But bearings are smooth and perfect, and chainrings look like wear first..

Just to be sure, i remove chainrings from problematic crankset again, inspect and assemble everything back and install it to C60 to test there if there will be jumping as well or not..Will report back as soon as i have a chance to test ride it..

Here how they look:

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On CAAD12 for now i have new crankset and today will do some test outside if this solved the problem.....On trainer look smooth, but ill see how will be in real riding...

Will repost findings from this test ride later/tommorow..

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Mockenrue
Posts: 479
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:32 am
Location: UK

by Mockenrue

Those rings don't look that worn to me. I'd say there is significant life left in them yet.

3Pio
Posts: 1257
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Mockenrue wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:26 pm
Those rings don't look that worn to me. I'd say there is significant life left in them yet.

To be honest im also suprised why the problem was happening.. I compared to really worn chainrings i have, and look like this have some life left..

But when i was trying to adjust and ride with them the chain was definetely jumping and skipping (under power.. On working stand was ok)

Also another test i tried.. Chain on Big Ring in the front and Big cog in the rear (52/29), pedalling in reverse chain was falling on the small chainring.. Same on 52/27....


When i put exactly the same crankset but brand new (i just installed on C60, and removed from there) , this dont happening anymore..

Also no chain jumping (when it was jumping the jump start on the front, and that make whole rear deral to jump).. Yesterday

I had a chance to ride outside the bike and everything almost perfect (there was a barely touching of chain to FD when i was riding 52 and 29, and two next cogs, but removing some cable tension fixed this). Also no problems on trainer..

Since i was cleaning the old crankset and removing the chainrings, i start having doubts that maybe i did not assembly properly, so that why this jumping/problems happening.

So i removed the chainrings again, check that everything is fine and assembly it again. Now i put crankset to Colnago C60 and since i was riding yesterday CAAD12, not enough time to have better test on crankset on C60 now, except putting 52/29 and try to pedal backward.. And same thing happened.. Chain fall to small chainring.. With new crankset (while it was installed on C60), this was not happening..

When im trying to shift and pedal, everything smooth (same as on CAAD12, but problems was happening under power). So need now under power if there will be jumping/skipping of chain.. If it does on C60 as well (where i have brand new RD, FD, Shifters...) then probably chainrings make the problems (problem is more pronounced on small chainring in the front, and less on big) and probably ill have to buy new (at least small chainrig).

Do u have any idea what can make this problem if it's not chainrings? And if not chainrings why then with exactly the same crankset but brand new, everything is working perfectly?

3Pio
Posts: 1257
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Let get back to CAAD12 for a while...

Finally two days ago i had a first outside test (20 km), and yesterday 80 km with some climbing as well..


I was a bit afraid that going a bit smaller frame will make things uncomfortable (C60 i used to ride is 547 stack/383 reach, CAAD12 is 536/381 ). On C60 i have 110mm stem, on Caad12 i put to test 120mm stem.

So after ride yesterday, i need to readjust a little bit setback (just few mm), and cleats, but so far soo good.. No pains, not uncomfortable.. It's different.. A bit more agresive...

I love the handling of the bike..Very stable ( my max speed was 51 km/h, temperature was 0 deg and danger from black ice etc..), but very stable planted feel.. Also the handling in tight curves very nice (between cars in the trafic lights for example).


C60 is definetely more comfortable, but CAAD12 is not uncofmortable (i guess carbon handlebar + Save Carbon Seatpost with integrated flex add to this).. And its very fun ride.. Where i noticed a bit of harshness was on part of road with broken tarmac, i can feel more sharp vibrations but nothing bad...

CAAD12 is definetely fun bike, but more testing will follow.. Another thing i noticed, yesterday i was pushing some serious watts and expectet some PR's there.. But i was slower then my PR.. Maybe because of 4Season tires with higher rolling resistance, and wet tarmac and some wind, but still... So still not sure if bike look like faster but in reality is slower, or external factors made up for no PR's... But as i said, more testing will follow in next period.. Of course i'll report :)

Another thing which is very strange.. On this bike i feel like i need even lower handlebar then it is... Since i have 25mm headset cup and 5 mm spacer under the stem.. Is it ok to go directy with stem on headset cup without spacers in between? Or just ot remove 25mm headset cup, and to go with 5mm cap and add some spacers?


Some photos from the rides yesterday and day before...


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3Pio
Posts: 1257
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Colnago just finished...

Again too bad weather is awfull outside, so will have to use trainer for test...

The overall weight is 6755 gm but without bar tape, without Garmin Mount and with Look Blade Ti pedals...

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3Pio
Posts: 1257
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

And CAAD12 weight including bar tape and Look Blade Ti Pedals with Bora 35 tubs




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3Pio
Posts: 1257
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

While doing TrainerRoad on Trainer with CAAD12 i noticed that maybe 110mm stem will be better than 120mm (ill test still not sure)

Seem that i prefer shorter but lower vs longer but higher...

And i replaced my Fizik Cyrano R1 Stem 120mm, with Kalloy Uno 110mm..

Fizik bolts are lighter so i put them on Kalloy and this is what i got...

Seem like cheapest way to save 33 gm...

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3Pio
Posts: 1257
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

And finally got the last package ordered in December...

Garmin mount which i ordered trough Aliexpress

It's lighter then original mount for 5 gm

New Garmin Mount (33 gm)

Original (38 gm)



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3Pio
Posts: 1257
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

I had about 1000 km on CAAD12 so time to write a mini review and to compare to C60...

I done few rides longer then 100 km, the longest is 130 km and fast pace.. What i really like is downhill stability of this bike also how stiff it feel when u push hard.. Still having small issuess to get the perfect position, but im close (i have other saddle then im used of it, so i think biggest isuse is that in this moment. I used to ride Selle Italia SLR Carbonio Flow, and now here im using Specialized Romin Evo Pro). I have small issue with Save seatpost, there is some creaking noise sometimes (when i push on pedals hard), and i think it's coming from saddle cradle..

Lets' bike to CAAD12 handling.. On downhills it's like on rails, u can feel how nice holding line.. UHill, hard efforts.. Really stiff, u feel how it's going forward.. And also on longers rides i had (last time 130 km, 30 km/h average speed and 1250 m climb), i did not feel uncofmrable or some negative because of the bike.. And really love that i dont have to care too much, so i can just put the bike on roof of car, and drive to explore new ridings, or just bring with me on holliday or weekend.. With Colnago i was worried a bit more, so did not want to drive outside of the car...

In this moment i ride this bike with Shamal Ultra wheelset, Latex inner tubes and Conti 4 Season tires.. It's a bit less sofisticated then C60, but i'll have to try with Bora Tubs and Vittoria to have conclusion about this.. Also i'll probably order Selle Carbonio Flow to finally adjust my position here...



And lets update C60 as well.. After readjusting levers positions on Deda Superleggero here, i can say Deda RHM and Campy works perfect.. The gritty area for clamping put the levers too low, so i put some carbon paste and put then higher (i put lower part of lever, level with drops).. And yesterday had 135 km ride and i can say amazing.. No more uncofmortable bump on hoods, and i can perfectly put my self in drops or hoods and push hard.. Also cant feel any lacking of stifness (i was mostly afraid of this). Another extra bonus is shape of tops, which is perfect on hills.. (yesterday i had about 1600 meters climb)

So i'll order Deda Superleggero Stem and Seatpost to match the handlebar.....

Since i had just few days apart from riding about 130 km on both bikes, i can say C60 is more sofisticated for sure, better then CAAD12 for sure.. Somehow is stiff, reactive but very sofisticated so sometimes dont feel that is going fast/pushing hard.. Anyway not 4 times better as is price difference.. On Caad12 pushing hard, going fast is a bit more dramatic.. But each of this bikes have different role, and both works their role perfectly.. And still need to swap wheelset to see how CAAD12 witll work with Bora's and tubs and to put same saddle....Also another thing for C60.. I have handlebar lower now then i was riding (i guess im more flexible now).. So this put centre of gravity lower and everything is much more stable.. C60 shine in handling with lower position.. Also seem that switching form 42 in drops to 40, i prefer more in any way...

Will i sell C60 since i have Caad12? NO .. I love this bike... Can i live with CAAD12 if i did not have C60? Definetely YES (just dont try C60 in meanwhile :) )

by Weenie


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