Best Groupset in your opinion

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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hambini
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by hambini

StevenH72 wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:21 pm
What real life consequences is this likely to have Hambini?

I'm about to pull the trigger on a groupset and was set on Sram, people I've spoken to at my club can't speak highly enough of it.

I have read that in comparison tests Shimano shifts that bit quicker / crisper than Sram. Is that likely to be because of the tolerance class differences?
The speed of the shifts is more likely to be mechanical or design differences but the crispness or how smoothly something shifts could easily be attributable to the tolerances.

The difference is the final customer rarely sees the way these things are made or how accurately they are made. They are probably not interested.

The consumer is well versed to recognizing quality design and aesthetic appeal. They are not so good or able to assess an accurately made item because they are unable to measure it.

Based on wear from tolerances, it's more likely that SRAM will wear out before Shimano and Campag.

URAQT, hit the nail on the head when he said his campag would be working when etap/di2 would not be.
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StevenH72
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by StevenH72

hambini wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:01 pm
StevenH72 wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:21 pm
What real life consequences is this likely to have Hambini?

I'm about to pull the trigger on a groupset and was set on Sram, people I've spoken to at my club can't speak highly enough of it.

I have read that in comparison tests Shimano shifts that bit quicker / crisper than Sram. Is that likely to be because of the tolerance class differences?
The speed of the shifts is more likely to be mechanical or design differences but the crispness or how smoothly something shifts could easily be attributable to the tolerances.

The difference is the final customer rarely sees the way these things are made or how accurately they are made. They are probably not interested.

The consumer is well versed to recognizing quality design and aesthetic appeal. They are not so good or able to assess an accurately made item because they are unable to measure it.

Based on wear from tolerances, it's more likely that SRAM will wear out before Shimano and Campag.

URAQT, hit the nail on the head when he said his campag would be working when etap/di2 would not be.
Perfect, thanks :thumbup:

RocketRacing
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by RocketRacing

Just remember to consiter things like materials quality. Who has the strongest alloys? Who has the best heat treatment for their gears to harden the surfaces and resist wear? Are the surfaces even heat treated? Machining tolerance is another factor as noted previously.... and one that can be measured.

Lets also not forget that a tolerance of 0.075 vs 0.025 factors far less in smoothness than grime on your drivechain, or poor setup.

Also, we need to consiter orders of magnitude. A drivechain will wear out from mechanical friction from grime far sooner than it would from poor tolerances. Even with perfect machining, ideal materials, and excellent heat treatments, bikes are a nasty system with lots of wear due to surface contaminates. This is greatly compounded by the search for light weight. Light aluminum gears with perfect machining tolerances will wear far faster than lower tolerance steel in a clean environment. One is just so much softer. Thus, light groupsets (the high end) tend to not last as long.

Part of why shimano is so nice is because they also make alloy choices that improve the reliability game. But as a result, sram beats them in weight... which is easy to market.

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

Best groupset should also take into account, wear and tolerances!
Great, that is Hambinis area i'd guess?
I would deem Campa EPS and Sram Etap as best looking.
Shimano works great as long as those batteries doesn't get suicidal.
If we look into wear and play, which comes out on top here ?
Campa, Shimano or Sram?

Which of these have best tolerances?
Campa or Shimano?
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bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

record 12 speed is pretty nice. super record 11 speed RS. I quite like my record 11 speed EPS too. The ing with SRAM I never got passed misshifting when testing customers bike. one tap for up two for down or is ot the other way round. Either way I find it awkward.

hambini
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by hambini

wheelsONfire wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:55 pm
Best groupset should also take into account, wear and tolerances!
Great, that is Hambinis area i'd guess?
I would deem Campa EPS and Sram Etap as best looking.
Shimano works great as long as those batteries doesn't get suicidal.
If we look into wear and play, which comes out on top here ?
Campa, Shimano or Sram?

Which of these have best tolerances?
Campa or Shimano?
In order of manufacturing quality

Shimano
Campag
SRAM.

If you transposed this to the bike sector, have a look at Cannondale, their manufacturing tolerances are really poor. They designed the BB30 standard and then a large proportion of their bikes do not meet it. They are aware of the problem - Cannondale UK contacted me but were powerless to do anything about it because the mother ship in the USA that is led by accountants don't want a class action lawsuit or the financial hit.

I would not be able to sleep if I was letting stuff leave the door with either SRAM or cannondale tolerances. I would slash my wrists from the shame and humiliation of breaking the ENG code.
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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

Hambini, where are the worst problems talking Sram?
Does it apply to the whole range of groupsets (including Red mech and Etap)?

Only thing i kind of wonder about is the Red 22, BB 386 crankset.
Looking at spec of spacer, wavy washer and 0.5 washers and actual axle length i find it a bit questionable.
It's noted when you come down to mounting spacer and washer and torque value.
Fit through bearings is not a problem, thank God for that!

I have only used Rival and Apex previous to Etap. However, i must admit Etap is really way more picky than Di2 when it comes to tuning derailleurs.

A pity Campagnolo is so expensive + the fact that i haven't heard of any bike shop or importer dealing with Campa overhere.

My last bike i built, was ordered as Etap specific frameset. This voids unnecessary holes in the frameset.
I kind of like it one way, but ofcourse, i would need to oversee this if i went for Shimano or Campa.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=156137
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)


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2lo8
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by 2lo8

That SRAM thing is a quirk of GXP because it was designed for 22mm, then someone got the idea to use 7/8" or 22.2mm bearings to cut costs or something. It's obviously bad, but it's not manufacturing variance. It's bad (re)design. Spindle length also happens to be incredibly unimportant on a pinch bolt design like Shimano, even if tolerances are excellent. I personally have not been impressed with recent 105. I don't have a large sample size but tolerances seem to getting worse. Even on slightly older 105 I remember quirks like the brake lever pins not sticking out the same on both sides.

In regards to SRAM, the only thing you really notice is how clunky the shift mechanism feels, which probably has more to do with the springs and ratchets than tolerances. When things are sprung, under tension or compression, it becomes a lot harder to detect differences from tolerances.
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hambini
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by hambini

@wheelsonfire
I went to a bike show last year and one of the SRAM guys at their stand recognized me from youtube, we spoke about lots of things. During the conversation he questioned why I didn't make GXP bottom brackets. I explained to him the reasons and he didn't disagree. He said that SRAM had to skirt some Shimano patents on the 24mm axle and developed GXP. He conceded that the bearing setup was not ideal and he recognized that Shimano manufacturing was "probably" better than SRAM but they were taking steps to improve it.

I have spoken about cranksets to give an example but if you laser scan SRAM and do the same for Shimano, the difference on non critical dimensions like forgings of bodies and pin locations. Shimano is way more accurate.
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fabriciom
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by fabriciom

Never riden anything other than camp so my opinion is biased.

My vote is for campagnolo chorus.

XCProMD
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by XCProMD

2lo8 wrote:That SRAM thing is a quirk of GXP because it was designed for 22mm, then someone got the idea to use 7/8" or 22.2mm bearings to cut costs or something. It's obviously bad, but it's not manufacturing variance. It's bad (re)design. Spindle length also happens to be incredibly unimportant on a pinch bolt design like Shimano, even if tolerances are excellent. I personally have not been impressed with recent 105. I don't have a large sample size but tolerances seem to getting worse. Even on slightly older 105 I remember quirks like the brake lever pins not sticking out the same on both sides.

In regards to SRAM, the only thing you really notice is how clunky the shift mechanism feels, which probably has more to do with the springs and ratchets than tolerances. When things are sprung, under tension or compression, it becomes a lot harder to detect differences from tolerances.
That “clunkyness” is something SRAM might be after. It just takes a enough lateral play at the top RD pulley (like Campag or Shimano) to soften most of it.

Talking tolerances the CULT bearing and the Ergopower internals are interesting.


mattr
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by mattr

2lo8 wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:57 pm
That SRAM thing is a quirk of GXP because it was designed for 22mm, then someone got the idea to use 7/8" or 22.2mm bearings to cut costs or something. It's obviously bad, but it's not manufacturing variance. It's bad (re)design.
Design? No design involved at all. Except by an accountant.

Which doesn't count.
hambini wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:34 pm
I have spoken about cranksets to give an example but if you laser scan SRAM and do the same for Shimano, the difference on non critical dimensions like forgings of bodies and pin locations. Shimano is way more accurate.
I've actually dealt with this in the real world. Building a stack of SRAM team bikes with a couple of mates, the variability between supposedly identical parts was noticeable (but didn't actually have any effect on operation, eventually.).

On the flip side, it really wouldn't have been noticeable if i hadn't had to fit a dozen a more groupsets on a production line set up to compare. (Long enough ago to be Red 10 speed FWIW)

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

I would like to try Campa EPS just to see how it is compared to Shimano DI2 and Sram Etap.
Both setting up/ tuning and using.
Not that i have a need for it, but it would satisfy a curiousity/ understanding.
What is quite funny in all this, i have had more issues with Shimano due to battery failures, than i have had with Etap (finky setup).
I must admit that i have many times wondered if Campas batteries are a problem to?
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=156137
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)


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Calnago
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by Calnago

I recall there being some issues with the first generation of Campy batteries, but that's about it. I suppose for both Campy and Shimano when they work they work and when they don't they don't. That's the trouble, it's an on/off thing with electric. I've built and used both Shimano Di2/Mechanical and Campy EPS/Mechanical. With either group, I just prefer using mechanical. If I was maintaining a team of bikes, then electric would make my life very easy, for the most part. I find Campagnolo stuff to be really well made and machined, especially when it comes to their cranks, bearings, and cups (barring some early versions of the cups for some pressfit shells). And their chains and cogs are really jewels of precision imo, and durable too. I always measure the cups diameters (outside and inside) and the bearings and it's always a perfect fit and is the reason my first BB choice for a campy install is always Campy cups. The shells of the frame BB's are more susceptible to variations, but you know what, despite all the horror stories (and I've certainly worked with a few) with a proper install I have never had a problem, even in the Cannondale's that I've "fixed" and that includes installing SRAM BB's into Cannondale shells. Done right, they work. Getting the "done right" part is the tricky part. And that was certainly a lot easier in the days of threaded BB shells.

My favorite group is for sure Campy Mechanical... pick one (SR, Record, or Chorus), just pick your price point. The thing is, the difference between the Chorus group to the Super Record group is far less in terms of function and quality than it is between Shimano 105 and Dura Aces. The brakes are a good example. I have 105 brakes (new version) on my rain bike. The flex and fitting of parts is noticeably less tight and more "flexy" than on Dura Ace. I will be swapping them out to Dura Ace 9100. Maybe they build to different levels of manufacturing "tolerances" between the groups, whether on purpose or not, I don't know, but it's noticeable.

But if you look at the difference between Campy's Chorus and Super Record line of brakes for example, the differences are far less functional in nature and more about a few little niceties added or a few grams shaved, along with a disproportionate increase in price, ouch. A few ti screws, some nicer adjustment capabilities, but as far as how they work or function, I'm fine using either. I have Chorus brakes on one bike simply because they had slightly more clearance than the Record or Super Record. But functionally they are perfect. Other than brakes, the CULT bearings of SR cranks are the best in the biz as are the same bearings in their wheels, so that is a significant difference for sure, but you pay for it. But functionally, I don't think anyone would be crying over a lack of performance from Chorus vs Super Record.

Plus, I can shift a mechancial Campy group far faster with more control and have every option available to me all the time. Much moreso than I can with either of the electric groups (Shimano or Campy). Shimano mechanical is very smooth, but I still can't shift to all the options as quickly as I can with Campy mechanical. By that I mean simultaneous front/rear shifts WITH the ability to shift 1, 2, or 3 cogs in that same simultaneous moment with the same motion. It just becomes engrained, through a tactile feel of knowing exactly the right pressure/feel to enable a 1, 2, or 3 cog shift at the rear along with the front. It's essentailly instantaneous compared to any of the other options. You could even do more than 3 cogs at a time, but I find I'm never in a position where that's necessary or desired. Basically any option that you could configure in Shimano Synchro, Semi Snychro or Manual is always avaialble to me with Campy mechancial, any time, that instant. And I just enjoy shifting a perfectly tuned mechanical system far more than the sterility of a button push. I installed EPS on a guys bike because someone told him it was so much faster, etc. It's not and I told him that, but we put it on anyway. He has had many Campy bikes so can tell the difference. He eventually said with respect to EPS, yeah, it's not faster if you're familiar with mechanical, but it always hits the shift... but mechanical is "funner"." I completely agree... mechanical is "funner", and I will never have to plug it into anything or worry about it being charged enough.

So yeah, thats my 2 cents... Campy Mechanical... Chorus, Record or Super Record pick one.
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2lo8
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by 2lo8

XCProMD wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:18 pm
2lo8 wrote:That SRAM thing is a quirk of GXP because it was designed for 22mm, then someone got the idea to use 7/8" or 22.2mm bearings to cut costs or something. It's obviously bad, but it's not manufacturing variance. It's bad (re)design. Spindle length also happens to be incredibly unimportant on a pinch bolt design like Shimano, even if tolerances are excellent. I personally have not been impressed with recent 105. I don't have a large sample size but tolerances seem to getting worse. Even on slightly older 105 I remember quirks like the brake lever pins not sticking out the same on both sides.

In regards to SRAM, the only thing you really notice is how clunky the shift mechanism feels, which probably has more to do with the springs and ratchets than tolerances. When things are sprung, under tension or compression, it becomes a lot harder to detect differences from tolerances.
That “clunkyness” is something SRAM might be after. It just takes a enough lateral play at the top RD pulley (like Campag or Shimano) to soften most of it.

Talking tolerances the CULT bearing and the Ergopower internals are interesting.
There was a post that was either deleted or I hallucinated that was asking about how tolerances affected feel. I was more getting at the fact that differences in feel between brands has more to do with the design. Even within Shimano, I recall using a shadow 9-speed RD changes the feel of shifting compared to a road RD too, and that's a good point about the designed in slop in centeron pulleys. You can really only attribute the feel of these things due to tolerances when comparing like-to-like just because a bit of slop (unless felt directly at the lever) is relatively low on the list of things that affect feel.

I mean, if someone were to make a claim about shift quality (ignoring SRAM FDs) and not the feel at the lever, but the chain and cogs, I'd generally say it has more to do with the cassette/ring ramps and tooth profiles than pivot tolerances, simply because a SRAM cassette does in fact feel a little different from a Shimano cassette (and I had a DNP that was absolutely awful) with the same drivetrain, and swapping rings (FSA vs Shimano for example) seems to have a pretty big effect on chain pick up in the front rather than slop in pivots.
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