CAAD12 Campagnolo Groupset and Colnago C60 Campagnolo builds...

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
3Pio
Posts: 1200
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

robertbb wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:51 pm
Hey 3Pio! Definitely following this thread thanks for the effort! We have very similar taste in our stable of frames and gruppos, tools, stands, pedal PM, wheels.. :)

Would love to see some close-up pics of that chain catcher and your thoughts on how well it works with Campy?

Also, if you are looking for a great bar for Campy levers, I would suggest looking into the Canyon H17 AL (or H18 Carbon - same shape) in black and grey. I've tried a lot of bars, including the popular Deda options among others and honestly these bars have the best interface to Campy levers I could find anywhere. 70mm reach. 128mm drop. Perfect flat transition from hoods to bar. Great shape for small hands to reach brake levers from the hooks. Also they have no loud branding (just some tiny dark grey listing the model, reach, drop and width) and this can easily be removed with acetone. Real weight is around 265g and it's high quality 2014 alloy with a smooth non-grainy finish.

Robertbb, thanks for ur nice words.. Sorry for delayed reply, i was busy yesterday for finishing my build :)

About chain catcher, it was cheap :) and like how it look like.. And just wanted to try, and if does not work, i'll get something more popular..

This is the chain catcher i got: https://www.trivio.com/en_US/p/chain-ca ... ack/17297/

And bought it from bike24 and it was about 10 eur. I'll post some closeups during the day.

About handlebar, if i have easy access to Canyon probably potential for trying, but i checked at a moment and to order directly from Canyon they have 100 EUR shipping to my Country, which make it expensive option.

I really like Easton EC90SLX3 handlebar i have and which i installed on this build.. 75 mm reach, 130 mm drop, very comfortable, stiff, and plenty of option for lever position... Also 40 mm in hoods, 42 in drops, which make it perfect...

I like carbon handlebars since i found them more comfortable vs alloy especially on bad roads.... The negative thing can be flex, but Easton is stiffer then Zipp (Service Course SL80) Alloy i had before..

About Deda Superleggera, look also like nice shape for Campy, but with so many negatives.. Seem like Deda put design more in term of aesthetic and nice look then to function.. Seem like they have more designers then engineers :)

But dont know, maybe on C60 will be easier for installation, since the entrance holes are better position then on CAAD12, and also have brake entrance cable hole on right side (left).

On CAAD12 is really a bit problematic if u have proper levers setup (left one for front brake, and right one for rear brake, since it put rear brake cable in tight bend)

Probably will give another chance on C60, and if not work again, i'll send it back and get Fizik Cyrano R1 bar.

And really bad thing with Deda is very limited mounting space (which on highest position probably will work for me).

As i analyze this bar, and getting the fact the tops are a bit oval, seem that if i adjust the angle of rotation based on tops, will put hoods also in a bit higher position, and drops rotated a bit up.. Ussually i set up my bars with drops level, but this bar probably is designed for drops to be a bit rotated up...

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I really had a problem with rear brake on CAAD12, since the cable was rough and rubbing because of tight bend and bad entrance in frame.. I lost hours trying to find perfect lenght of cable and position, to fix this thing as much as possible..

And every attempt was like this:

- Cut the cable housing

Because of internal routing of this cable trough frame, i was using old little trick with vacuum cleaner:

- Put a seawing thread in the hole on one side, then use the vacum cleaner to bring it to other side...

- Using that thread to put the cable in right direction

- Test if brake is working properly.. If not, go back and try again with a bit shorter length...


So after few hours of trying, and using some Morgan Blue Campa grease on entrance, i finally had good result with rear brake..

robertbb
Posts: 903
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

by robertbb

I thought it was worth uploading pics of the bars just in case you (or another) wants to see how they work with Campy levers. These were taken before I taped it up so you can see exactly where the clamps are. The drops are set up perfectly parallel to the ground.

https://ibb.co/VDtrB2s
https://ibb.co/dLhmLmG
https://ibb.co/nf5Md3M
https://ibb.co/dpVFLPk
https://ibb.co/SN2Qh57

by Weenie


3Pio
Posts: 1200
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

robertbb wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:24 am
I thought it was worth uploading pics of the bars just in case you (or another) wants to see how they work with Campy levers. These were taken before I taped it up so you can see exactly where the clamps are. The drops are set up perfectly parallel to the ground.

https://ibb.co/VDtrB2s
https://ibb.co/dLhmLmG
https://ibb.co/nf5Md3M
https://ibb.co/dpVFLPk
https://ibb.co/SN2Qh57
As first to dont forget, close up of chain catcher.. If u like i can report how is working after some riding:

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The Canyon bar look nice and could be the option with Campy, and too bad Canyon decide to ignore purchasing from my Country with that big shipping cost...

Anyway, since i realized that handlebar is one of the most important things in term of comfort, fit etc, i'll also provide pictures how Easton EC90SLX3 look like with Campy shifters while still not tape on the bar:


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After 15000-16000 km on this bar with campy shifters, im finding almost perfect match....

3Pio
Posts: 1200
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Let's go toward the end of the CAAD12 build...

Here another snow day yesterday and today so perfect day for mechanical things :)



So let's continue...

Since i mentinoned that this bike will be riden by my gf sometimes as well, and she need higher bar position, i leave about 3 cm of spacers above the stem, which will go under the stem when she is riding..

Since Fork Expander provided with the bike is FSA and only 4 cm deep, this fork expander is not designed to have option for more spacers above the stem..Since in that case there wont be any support in the stem clamping area, so it can compromise fork stereer.. Thats way i decide to go for better solution (and to add 15 gm of weight), and ordered Colnago Fork Expander and Deda Top Cap (thinking that i'll have Deda bar on this bike).

Colnago Fork Expander is 9 cm long, which add some rigidity to fork stereer and it's safer then stock expander if u want option to have more spacers.. Of course after first checking diameter of both and if it's compatible with fork stereer.

Another option was Deda Fork Expander which is 7 cm long, but two things put me away. Seem that it can be tight fit or not fit at all one thing, and the other one crap design of magnetic top cap.. Seem that this confirm my opinion that Deda have more Designers then Engineers for their products :)


Let's get back to Fork Expanders and this (Cannondale (FSA) that come stock, compared to Colnago + Deda top cap):


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Fork Expander installed and all perfect for now...





Also for now, i'll go with my old Chorus 11-29 cassette where i have about 13000 km maybe a bit more, and i keep the chain from this cassette where i have 4700 km.. I just checked with Park Tool Chain wear tool and still good. Just to mention last chain i had (but riding in rain, dust, dirt lasted 2800 km and it was same Chorus chain)


The cassette detail weight:

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And The chain:




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3Pio
Posts: 1200
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Lets adjust the front deralieur...

I ordered Campy tool for this, and it's very easy to adjust position using this tool..It's my first time using it, but probably i'll continue..

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As u can see S2 lever of front Deral is not pressing against frame tube at all, but on the brazed clamp so not sure if it's adding to some stifness at all or not and if it's needed at all or not to this frame...


After cabling for the front shifter and trying to adjust the FD, i realized i forgot to add shifter adjuster on the cables ... And realized that i needed this for nice adjustments.. While trying to get more cable i was using pillar and damage the cable tip a little bit.. So i cut the cable since it was more then i needed.. And that was the moment where i realized that FD adjuster is missing and that i need for easier FD adjustment.. And also i needed a little more cable length.. I could blame @Calnago for this since he did not use it in his thread :), but since i needed more cable length and decide to cut a bit more of cable housing, add adjuster and reinstall back.. Good thing i put the shifter cables a bit longer so this was possible...


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I add some liners in the cable guide to protect cables from the dirt and contamination, and rubber thing on the top of cable exit....


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Also liner and rubber protective thing on the rear of the cable path, just above the dropout:

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Also installed the chain (using the quick link, and not campagnolo pin, since i want to be able to easy clean it.. I use quick links for last 20000 km, with plenty of climbing and never ever problem. .Anyway, i use new quick link on every chain)


On the rear, ussually i dont cut provided cable for rear deral. But on CAAD12 the rear deral. and cable exit from the frame are so close so there was a big loop which was not right.. I decided to cut a little bit and look much better.. Probably need to cut more, but for now i'll use it like this so will see how it will be...

FD adjustment goes well (until i dont try in real i'll be reserved on this) with some more tension to the cable...

On the rear i had a problem in 29 cog of cassette, there was like grinding noise.. I fix this putting derall in positiong that jockey wheels to be more far to cassette using B Screw... Also had a problem going to other side of cassette (toward 11s), in last two gears with one click two gearing was happening.. I fixed this adjusting cable tension and also deral far position stopper..


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So for now, all good :) i need to adjust position and to put tape on the bar... I'll have to test ride it first on trainer, since in next at least 10 days there will be snow outside.....

So this is how bike look like at almost end..

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I'll just put some more pics with final weight in different combinations:

- Bora 35 tubs and Corsa g+

- Bora 50 tubs and Conti Sprinter

- Shamal Ultra 4 Season tires+Latex tubes...

And will report riding feel as soon as i have a chance to actually ride it outside

PokojniToza
Posts: 202
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:41 pm

by PokojniToza

Nice and stealthy!
Бара пиво ова;)

3Pio
Posts: 1200
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

PokojniToza wrote:Nice and stealthy!
Бара пиво ова;)
There.. I fix it :)


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p.s.Во outdoor вчера, ама те немаше..Ќе поправиме деновиве :)



Sent from my Mi A2 using Tapatalk



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Calnago
Posts: 8180
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

Yay, it’s done. Couple of things...
1) Chuck the chain catcher and get one with the ability to adjust it independently of the front derailleur. Initial setting up of the front derailleur is a pretty precise operation and having to simultaneously adjust the chain catcher usually ends up with one or the other or both not being perfect. I’m talking “piece of paper” type clearances between both chain and the chain catcher (in small/big) and also inner cage plate and chain when in big/big. Will make life so much easier with something like a K-Edge Pro or equivalent.

2. Rear derailleur cable between chainstay and rear derailleur is way too long.

3. Having the inline cable installer is by far the best thing to do, but ugly. It’s almost imperative to have installed in order to get the front derailleur dialed. I do not use them on my bikes only because I can dial it in with my own little technique without it. However, I know you’re joking about blaming me for forgetting to install it but I also said that I strongly advise against not putting it in, especially if anyone else may ever be working in your bike. It seems that most mechanics couldn’t dial in a Campy front derailleur with the adjuster installed let alone without it. If I do a build for someone else, it always goes in.

Will look forward to hearing how you like the whole setup.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

3Pio
Posts: 1200
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Calnago wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:15 pm
Yay, it’s done. Couple of things...
1) Chuck the chain catcher and get one with the ability to adjust it independently of the front derailleur. Initial setting up of the front derailleur is a pretty precise operation and having to simultaneously adjust the chain catcher usually ends up with one or the other or both not being perfect. I’m talking “piece of paper” type clearances between both chain and the chain catcher (in small/big) and also inner cage plate and chain when in big/big. Will make life so much easier with something like a hor equivalent.

2. Rear derailleur cable between chainstay and rear derailleur is way too long.

3. Having the inline cable installer is by far the best thing to do, but ugly. It’s almost imperative to have installed in order to get the front derailleur dialed. I do not use them on my bikes only because I can dial it in with my own little technique without it. However, I know you’re joking about blaming me for forgetting to install it but I also said that I strongly advise against not putting it in, especially if anyone else may ever be working in your bike. It seems that most mechanics couldn’t dial in a Campy front derailleur with the adjuster installed let alone without it. If I do a build for someone else, it always goes in.

Will look forward to hearing how you like the whole setup.
1. I agree about this after installing this chain catcher and some experience i have on C60. I did not know that there is chain catchers that can be adjusted separately from FD, otherwise will bought like that and thanks for mention this..I picked this chain catcher since it looked very similar as one provided from Colnago with my C60, and also it was cheap to test it.

But yes, i allready had some problems with the chain catcher on C60 because of hard to be properly adjusted.. Few chain drops and chain catcher not help at all, even made things worst since chain was stucked and got some paint damage (i will show those spots when i build C60)

And i just google K-Edge pro and realizing two separately bolts for adjusting.. Probably will upgrade this on both bikes soon

2. In meanwhile i shorten this cable.. I guess is still long, but better to have what to cut than to have to do it again..

Looking forward for ur opinion about new length, and what do u think how to cut more?

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3. Of course im joking about blaming u for forgetting this adjuster :) I was in hurry and totaly forgot it. So realizing that i worked for hour to find out how i forgot this adjuster i made a joke that i can always blame u :) Sorry if i got missunderstunded about this

But if we are serious i learned so much from ur posts, and thanks for all ur help. I appreciate.

Also i agree if u have enough patience and have experience totaly doable without it, and much cleaner look.

Probably i will also tried without if i did not damage the end of the cable, so needed anyway to cut some housing to save the need of installing new cable (it was small length needing longer). So that how this adjuster get back (also realizing that i dont have patience to properly adjusted without adjuster) .. And yes, adjusting of FD need some experience and knowing what to do.. This time i follow guide how to do it, and hope that i done properly (at least look like working better then im used of it)


4. BTW i send u few more questions in inbox, will apreciate if u can answer since i weight ur opinion a lot...Thanks

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Calnago
Posts: 8180
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

Yes, I chuck the chain catcher that comes with the Colnagos as well. I just won't use one that doesn't have an independent adjustment from the front derailleur itself.

Re your rear derailleur housing, looks better, but still long imo... actually, it might be ok but you should check it when the chain is in the small/small combo and also the Big/Big combo just to make sure it's ok througout the entire shift range. It can come down to a judgement call since the arc it takes will depend somewhat on the angle of exit from the chainstay. Key point is you want to end up with as smooth an arc as possible, and that principle holds true for any housing bend where a mechanical cable is passing through. I would try to make a half donut shape (round) as opposed to a half hot dog shape like you still have. Although both are tasty in their own right. But when you have the rear derailleur housing exiting directly out of the chainstay like that, I'd strive for something closer to this...
Image

I've actually replaced that housing with the special housing that comes with the new Shimano rear derailleurs, just to try out. Because of the short cable run to the new Shimano rear derailleurs, they include a separate piece of derailleur housing which is much more flexible with the steel reinforcing wound like a brake cable instead of lenghtwise like a standard derailleur housing. Basically it makes it a lot easier to pull the derailleur rearwards for rear wheel removal with a short flexible cable housing, versus a short stiff cable housing. I just wanted to try it out to see if it changed shifting performance at all. It doesn't... it's merely there for the reason I just mentioned. So, even though the regular derailleur cable is much stiffer, I'll probably put it back on simply because it's got the Campy logo embossed on it, even though I'm riding a bike emblazened with huge SHIMANO sponsor logos all over it.

Good luck with your inaugural ride.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

3Pio
Posts: 1200
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Calnago wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:08 pm
Yes, I chuck the chain catcher that comes with the Colnagos as well. I just won't use one that doesn't have an independent adjustment from the front derailleur itself.

Re your rear derailleur housing, looks better, but still long imo... actually, it might be ok but you should check it when the chain is in the small/small combo and also the Big/Big combo just to make sure it's ok througout the entire shift range. It can come down to a judgement call since the arc it takes will depend somewhat on the angle of exit from the chainstay. Key point is you want to end up with as smooth an arc as possible, and that principle holds true for any housing bend where a mechanical cable is passing through. I would try to make a half donut shape (round) as opposed to a half hot dog shape like you still have. Although both are tasty in their own right. But when you have the rear derailleur housing exiting directly out of the chainstay like that, I'd strive for something closer to this...
Image

I've actually replaced that housing with the special housing that comes with the new Shimano rear derailleurs, just to try out. Because of the short cable run to the new Shimano rear derailleurs, they include a separate piece of derailleur housing which is much more flexible with the steel reinforcing wound like a brake cable instead of lenghtwise like a standard derailleur housing. Basically it makes it a lot easier to pull the derailleur rearwards for rear wheel removal with a short flexible cable housing, versus a short stiff cable housing. I just wanted to try it out to see if it changed shifting performance at all. It doesn't... it's merely there for the reason I just mentioned. So, even though the regular derailleur cable is much stiffer, I'll probably put it back on simply because it's got the Campy logo embossed on it, even though I'm riding a bike emblazened with huge SHIMANO sponsor logos all over it.

Good luck with your inaugural ride.

I'll cut another length definetely... BTW, seem that everything Cannondale support replied to me was wrong :) even non compatibility with Campagnolo:


https://12speed.campagnolo.com/US/en/ca ... campagnolo


About chain catcher, now when u mentioned, i found out three designs that provide separate chain catcher adjustment:

1. K-Edge Pro that u mention

https://k-edge.com/shop/chain-catchers/ ... n-catcher/

2. Rotor chain catcher

https://www.sigmasports.com/item/Rotor/ ... Issue/3L3M


3. And Absolute black chain catcher which look almost excactly the same as Rotor

https://absoluteblack.cc/road-chain-catcher-braze-on/


Any other suggestions for worth considering chain catchers?

Thanks about good wished for inaugural ride, too bad it will be on Trainer since outside 30-50 cm snow in my area :( (which is perfect for building C60 as well in next few days :) )

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Miller
Posts: 1573
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:54 pm
Location: Reading, UK

by Miller

3Pio wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:47 pm
Any other suggestions for worth considering chain catchers?
You could do worse than get Campag's own chain catcher. They've done two versions of this. The second one is better, FD-SR203, as it allows independent setting of front der position and chain catcher arm position.

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Calnago
Posts: 8180
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

Definitely stick with the K-Edge or the newer Campy chaincatcher that Miller references. If you had EPS then the Campy one is better because it fits the funky anchor bolt on EPS, whereas the K-Edge one needs a bit of modification. There was a separate thread where we were talking about that, but no idea where it is. Doesn’t matter though. You’re on the right path to success.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

PokojniToza
Posts: 202
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:41 pm

by PokojniToza

I seem to have the new Campag one. Does the trick. You can find it at our LBS (at least they used to stock it):)

by Weenie


robertbb
Posts: 903
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

by robertbb

Is it just me, or is that drive side gear housing (the one with the barrel adjuster) waaaayyyy to short?

Have you tried steering you bike to the left? ;-)

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