Trying not to waste more money on bike fits

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
cyclenutnz
Posts: 799
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:18 am
Location: Cambridge, New Zealand
Contact:

by cyclenutnz

There are lot of cool calculators I'd like to have on the site but my developer doesn't understand that in the bike industry you're supposed to work for the love of it.
And our main focus is, of course, on the products we get paid for.
http://www.speedtheory.co.nz
http://www.velogicfit.com - 3D Motion Capture and Frame Finder Software

Bigger Gear
Posts: 474
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:58 pm
Location: Wet coast, Canada

by Bigger Gear

RocketRacing wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:00 am

My personal rating of rider skill based on cleat choice (and this includes froome, Sagan, your mother) goes something like this:

Time cleats = veteran rider/ex pro with knee/hip problems
Hey, I resemble that remark!

I know this thread drifted off into pedal float discussion, but as a now 50 year old who went through his growth years getting hurled into the dirt by a motocross bike, I have no shortage of physical challenges. I still raced at a cat 1 level, but honestly the only pedal system that truly works for me is Time. By and large I have been on them since 1995, with only a couple of short forays on Shimano and Speedplay.

by Weenie


bikeboy1tr
Posts: 385
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:19 am
Location: Southern Ontario Canada

by bikeboy1tr

Bigger Gear wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:55 pm
RocketRacing wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:00 am

My personal rating of rider skill based on cleat choice (and this includes froome, Sagan, your mother) goes something like this:

Time cleats = veteran rider/ex pro with knee/hip problems
Hey, I resemble that remark!

I know this thread drifted off into pedal float discussion, but as a now 50 year old who went through his growth years getting hurled into the dirt by a motocross bike, I have no shortage of physical challenges. I still raced at a cat 1 level, but honestly the only pedal system that truly works for me is Time. By and large I have been on them since 1995, with only a couple of short forays on Shimano and Speedplay.
Hmmm Motocross, just how bad are the knees and why does the Time pedal work best for your injuries?
"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving"-Albert Einstein
2018 Colnago V2R Rim Brake
2014 Norco Threshold Disc Brake
2012 Time RXRS Ulteam Rim Brake
2008 Time VXR Rim Brake
2006 Ridley Crosswind Rim Brake

mattr
Posts: 4673
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
Location: The Grim North.

by mattr

TBH, i've been using Time road since i was 15 (after watching Delgado in 88, then Lemond in 89) and MTB since they were launched, they just work better. They still do (well, up to the generation i have. RX on the road, bang up to date on the MTB.)
The knee/hip/ankle/back injuries i've picked up over the years have been due to accidents, not useage.

Have tried a few others, both road and MTB, over the years, some before the Times, some after, MKS Mapstage, Look Delta, Look Keo, Look MTB, SPD, SPD-R, SPD-SL, Mavic, Speedplay (One ride), Frog (One ride). Once i'd started with Time i always went back to them, usually within a couple of rides. The combination of float (free and lightly sprung) and platform size (especially MTB) suits me. These days, trying others just causes injuries to flare up.

Bigger Gear
Posts: 474
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:58 pm
Location: Wet coast, Canada

by Bigger Gear

bikeboy1tr wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:13 pm
Hmmm Motocross, just how bad are the knees and why does the Time pedal work best for your injuries?
My right knee has an ACL that is intact but functionally useless, however that was actually done skiing. It's surviving, back in 1988 an ACL replacement was a massive ordeal, often with suspect outcome. I was pretty much done riding MX then and starting university, so I decided against repair.

But overall my pelvis and hips took a lot of hits through the years growing up. No broken femurs or hips, but I think being continually knocked out of alignment while I was growing led to some very bad asymmetries as I grew older. Honestly, I got out of MX pretty light for the number of years I raced and the level I finished at. I broke my Rt arm badly and required a plate, I bruised and lacerated my Rt kidney, and cracked my cocyxx along with minor things like sprains and finger dislocations. A recent CT during a gastrointestinal workup actually showed a small piece of bone floating near my right ilium, with a small piece of my ilium missing. I bet that has been there since I was 12 years old and was missed on the tailbone X-ray!

Anyway, Time pedals just work well for me because they have both lateral and rotational float, and I think from day to day my flexibility and thus stability on the bike is quite variable. Likely a function of aging, sitting at a desk, etc, etc. I've actually been on Speedplay most of this year but that experiment is ending very soon and I'm going back to Time Xpresso/Xpro.
Last edited by Bigger Gear on Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

timmerrr
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:09 pm

by timmerrr

Bigger Gear wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:38 am

My right knee has an ACL that is intact but functionally useless, however that was actually done skiing. It's surviving, back in 1988 an ACL replacement was a massive ordeal, often with suspect outcome. I was pretty much done riding MX then and starting university, so I decided against repair.

But overall my pelvis and hips took a lot of hits through the years growing up. No broken femurs or hips, but I think being continually knocked out of alignment while I was growing led to some very bad asymmetries as I grew older. Honestly, I got out of MX pretty light for the number of years I raced and the level I finished at. I broke my Rt arm badly and required a plate, I bruised and lacerated my Rt kidney, and cracked my cocyxx along with minor things like sprains and finger dislocations. A recent CT during a gastrointestinal workup actually showed a small piece of bone floating near my right ilium, with a small piece of my ilium missing. I bet that has been there since I was 12 years old and was missed on the tailbone X-ray!

Anyway, Time pedals just work well for me because they have both lateral and rotational float, and I think from day to day my flexibility and thus stability on the bike is quite variable. Likely a function of aging, sitting at a desk, etc, etc. I've actually been on Speedplay most of this year but that experiment is ending very soon and I'm going back to Time Xpresso/Xpro.
Im in the same boat. I snowboarded competitively from when I was 10 until 19. 3 major concussions, broken right arm, compound fracture of the left side of my collar bone, ACL/MCL in my right knee thats been repaired, landed on my head/back/hips more times than I can count. Started seeing a chiropractor last year for what I thought were unrelated issues. Found out I had 3 undiagnosed broken vertibrae, my hips were almost 5 degrees out of alignment, and I had 3 major curves in my spine... He was shocked I could even sit on a bike let alone ride competitively.

bikeboy1tr
Posts: 385
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:19 am
Location: Southern Ontario Canada

by bikeboy1tr

timmerrr wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:04 pm
Bigger Gear wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:38 am

My right knee has an ACL that is intact but functionally useless, however that was actually done skiing. It's surviving, back in 1988 an ACL replacement was a massive ordeal, often with suspect outcome. I was pretty much done riding MX then and starting university, so I decided against repair.

But overall my pelvis and hips took a lot of hits through the years growing up. No broken femurs or hips, but I think being continually knocked out of alignment while I was growing led to some very bad asymmetries as I grew older. Honestly, I got out of MX pretty light for the number of years I raced and the level I finished at. I broke my Rt arm badly and required a plate, I bruised and lacerated my Rt kidney, and cracked my cocyxx along with minor things like sprains and finger dislocations. A recent CT during a gastrointestinal workup actually showed a small piece of bone floating near my right ilium, with a small piece of my ilium missing. I bet that has been there since I was 12 years old and was missed on the tailbone X-ray!

Anyway, Time pedals just work well for me because they have both lateral and rotational float, and I think from day to day my flexibility and thus stability on the bike is quite variable. Likely a function of aging, sitting at a desk, etc, etc. I've actually been on Speedplay most of this year but that experiment is ending very soon and I'm going back to Time Xpresso/Xpro.
Im in the same boat. I snowboarded competitively from when I was 10 until 19. 3 major concussions, broken right arm, compound fracture of the left side of my collar bone, ACL/MCL in my right knee thats been repaired, landed on my head/back/hips more times than I can count. Started seeing a chiropractor last year for what I thought were unrelated issues. Found out I had 3 undiagnosed broken vertibrae, my hips were almost 5 degrees out of alignment, and I had 3 major curves in my spine... He was shocked I could even sit on a bike let alone ride competitively.
Bigger Gear wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:38 am
bikeboy1tr wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:13 pm
Hmmm Motocross, just how bad are the knees and why does the Time pedal work best for your injuries?
My right knee has an ACL that is intact but functionally useless, however that was actually done skiing. It's surviving, back in 1988 an ACL replacement was a massive ordeal, often with suspect outcome. I was pretty much done riding MX then and starting university, so I decided against repair.

But overall my pelvis and hips took a lot of hits through the years growing up. No broken femurs or hips, but I think being continually knocked out of alignment while I was growing led to some very bad asymmetries as I grew older. Honestly, I got out of MX pretty light for the number of years I raced and the level I finished at. I broke my Rt arm badly and required a plate, I bruised and lacerated my Rt kidney, and cracked my cocyxx along with minor things like sprains and finger dislocations. A recent CT during a gastrointestinal workup actually showed a small piece of bone floating near my right ilium, with a small piece of my ilium missing. I bet that has been there since I was 12 years old and was missed on the tailbone X-ray!

Anyway, Time pedals just work well for me because they have both lateral and rotational float, and I think from day to day my flexibility and thus stability on the bike is quite variable. Likely a function of aging, sitting at a desk, etc, etc. I've actually been on Speedplay most of this year but that experiment is ending very soon and I'm going back to Time Xpresso/Xpro.

I am sure we could do a huge thread on past injuries from some of the physically demanding sports we have participated in over the years but these are the very reasons we need the float in our pedals/cleats to allow us to ride as pain free as we can. I have been running the Speedplay Zero with adjustment for a little float but nothing crazy. I dont feel so bad about my minor hip issue after reading the list you two have put together.
"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving"-Albert Einstein
2018 Colnago V2R Rim Brake
2014 Norco Threshold Disc Brake
2012 Time RXRS Ulteam Rim Brake
2008 Time VXR Rim Brake
2006 Ridley Crosswind Rim Brake

robeambro
Posts: 602
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

Unrequested-and-possibly-useless update: I have given up and booked another bike fit, this time with a professional (rather than a big retail name who happens to offer the service to make money) who also comes with good references.

Will I get a different fit? Probably. But at least now I will have better questions and I will not leave the room without being virtually sure of what's right for me.

Bigger Gear
Posts: 474
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:58 pm
Location: Wet coast, Canada

by Bigger Gear

robeambro wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:44 pm
Unrequested-and-possibly-useless update: I have given up and booked another bike fit, this time with a professional (rather than a big retail name who happens to offer the service to make money) who also comes with good references.

Will I get a different fit? Probably. But at least now I will have better questions and I will not leave the room without being virtually sure of what's right for me.
Good luck with this. Don't be afraid to ask a lot of questions during the process. Anyone taking your money for a bike fit should also be willing to slow down and answer as many questions as you have along the way.

mattr
Posts: 4673
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
Location: The Grim North.

by mattr

And if it's a proper fit, there should be margin/allowance for follow up questions if there are any niggles or further tweaks needed.

robeambro
Posts: 602
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

Thanks guys, I will surely post an update once I get it done (if all goes well, last few days of the year)

robeambro
Posts: 602
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

As promised, welcome to another episode of "Trying to not waste more money on bike fits"!


The quality of the second fit I got was much higher. The results didn't change too much though. Recommended reach increased by 3mm (and here we're in the realm of "whatever, could be due to bar tape and how I felt on the day"), while stack increased by 1cm (!). The saddle setback is only listed from the tip of the saddle (unfortunately I was riding on an SMP saddle which I would not really like to put on my bike, and apparently those have a very peculiar shape)

The fitter was not keen on me going and looking at aero bikes, so I thought I would sadly settle for something non-aero and with a slightly more relaxed position, like the Cervelo R5. In size 56, with only a tiny bit of spacers, I should be fine. I'll tweak stem/handlebar choice to achieve the required reach.

I am still pondering whether a frame with a 73deg seat tube angle and inline post would allow me to get the recommended saddle setback. I guess I could buy an in-line seatpost for my winter bike to give it a go. But I need to understand how to exactly replicate the bikefitting recommendations.

Anybody could chip in and guide me in how to get this done correctly?

- In the first bikefit I was given a setback from bb to the centre of the saddle of 203mm
- In the second bikefit I was given a setback from bb to the tip of an SMP saddle of 52mm
- I was told that non-SMP saddles tend to likely sit 15-20mm more far back, but not sure how accurate this is. Which would imply that for any other saddle, I'd be looking at 67-75mm from the tip of the saddle to the bb.

Sooo, what do I do?

User avatar
silvalis
Posts: 678
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:02 am
Location: Aus

by silvalis

if you still have the previous saddle, the easiest way is to measure the saddle where it is, eg, 10cm across and use that as your centre point of the saddle measure from there to the tip of the saddle, then you can figure out where you need to position each saddle for your setback numbers.

And yes, SMPs need to be pushed forward 15-20mm. You sit very far back on an SMP compared to other saddles hence the extremely long rails extending backwards. Setback vs the nose isnt the best measurement as the nose is long and pretty much unusable. Ideally you'd use effective seat tube angle through the centre of the saddle which I think computerised fits like retul give you.

SMPs take some time to get used to, but are super afterwards.
Unfortunately they are pretty heavy even in CRB.
Chasse patate

robeambro
Posts: 602
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

silvalis wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:32 pm
if you still have the previous saddle, the easiest way is to measure the saddle where it is, eg, 10cm across and use that as your centre point of the saddle measure from there to the tip of the saddle, then you can figure out where you need to position each saddle for your setback numbers.

And yes, SMPs need to be pushed forward 15-20mm. You sit very far back on an SMP compared to other saddles hence the extremely long rails extending backwards. Setback vs the nose isnt the best measurement as the nose is long and pretty much unusable. Ideally you'd use effective seat tube angle through the centre of the saddle which I think computerised fits like retul give you.

SMPs take some time to get used to, but are super afterwards.
Unfortunately they are pretty heavy even in CRB.
Unfortunately I don't have the saddle that I tested on the day - I'll ask the fitter for what model it was. But thanks for the tip!

Hmm wait, I seem to have misunderstood SMP's. I thought they needed to be pushed BACK, rather than forward? I have several emails from my fitter saying that SMP's place you quite far forward compared to other saddles. Mistery intensifies..

by Weenie


User avatar
silvalis
Posts: 678
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:02 am
Location: Aus

by silvalis

Can't find a picture right now (might take a pic of my own later) but essentially SMPs reach a width (picked an arbitrary number here) of 10cm a good 10-20mm back compared to other saddles. Meaning you sit further back on the saddle than you would on others. Meaning you push it forward to maintain the same seat position relative to the BB and often dont need a setback seatpost.

I think Steve hogg wrote a bit on it.
https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bi ... bout-smps/

yeah. dot point 8.
Chasse patate

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