Campagnolo Potenza vs Shimano R7000/R8000

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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mpulsiv
Posts: 1307
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:17 pm

by mpulsiv

WorkonSunday wrote:i have a few groupsets: DA 9000/R8000 mix, Ultegra 6800, R8050 (Di2), 105 5800/R8000 mix, Campag SR EPS.

I recently tried a demo bike with R7000 (cable disc brake with TRP HYRD), fresh out of the box, no one else rode it before. i was totally totally totally blown away by the R7000. the shift quality is miles ahead of 5800, and in fact i place it above 6800 in terms of shifter clicks. it was nearly as good as my DA 9000. but im not just not a big fan of big cassette and long cage dereailier
You mean R7000 exhibit tactile feedback? Shimano shifting always felt mushy to me, even DA 9000. I think I’m going to take it for a test ride, granted 99% of bikes are dressed with Shimano at local LBS. Speaking of which, I ordered Potenza blindly, without a test ride. Frankly, I don’t see myself going back to Shimano, unless it’s Di2.
Racing is a three-dimensional high-speed chess game, involving hundreds of pieces on the board.

:arrow: CBA = Chronic Bike Addiction
:arrow: OCD = Obsessive Cycling Disorder

Karvalo
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Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

mpulsiv wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:21 pm
You mean R7000 exhibit tactile feedback? Shimano shifting always felt mushy to me, even DA 9000.
Yeah, again all Shimano up to the 9000 generation and its trickle downs feels very different to the R9100 generation and its trickle downs. Shimano made a clear decision to go more tactile with the shift lever clicks and much more definite with the shift itself with the new shadow mechs.

by Weenie


morrisond
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Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:34 pm

by morrisond

Karvalo wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:05 pm
nachetetm wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:38 am
raisinberry777 wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:08 pm
I always laugh every time I hear the line that someone needs to find a mechanic with Campy experience. It's hardly different from setting up any other group, and all it requires is following a very basic instruction manual. I could manage it easily and I'm terrible at doing my own mechanical work.
And still, the first two mechanics that touched my Potenza front derailleur didn't manage to make it work properly. The third one was a bit concerned (according to him they almost never see a Campy bike, maybe one in a hundred he said) but nailed the job.
I think that's the main thing for this level of work, attitude not experience. If the third mechanic was concerned, it's because he cares about doing a good job.

One of the main requirements to work on Campy is the ability and willingness to read. The Campy tech documents are excellent and if you can turn a screwdriver this stuff is not Rocket Science. Follow the instructions and it works great.

The only time I found problems with getting Campy set up (before I just learned to do it myself) was with Mechanics who could not be bothered too or had the inability to read and wouldn't follow the instructions and tried to set it up like Shimano.

Remember most bicycle parts were engineered to be worked on by Shop monkeys with little to no education. The tech documents are great and Campy has lots of Videos on Youtube as well. Learn to do it yourself it's a lot of fun. Just take your time.

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mpulsiv
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Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:17 pm

by mpulsiv

morrisond wrote:
Karvalo wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:05 pm
nachetetm wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:38 am
raisinberry777 wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:08 pm
I always laugh every time I hear the line that someone needs to find a mechanic with Campy experience. It's hardly different from setting up any other group, and all it requires is following a very basic instruction manual. I could manage it easily and I'm terrible at doing my own mechanical work.
And still, the first two mechanics that touched my Potenza front derailleur didn't manage to make it work properly. The third one was a bit concerned (according to him they almost never see a Campy bike, maybe one in a hundred he said) but nailed the job.
I think that's the main thing for this level of work, attitude not experience. If the third mechanic was concerned, it's because he cares about doing a good job.

One of the main requirements to work on Campy is the ability and willingness to read. The Campy tech documents are excellent and if you can turn a screwdriver this stuff is not Rocket Science. Follow the instructions and it works great.

The only time I found problems with getting Campy set up (before I just learned to do it myself) was with Mechanics who could not be bothered too or had the inability to read and wouldn't follow the instructions and tried to set it up like Shimano.

Remember most bicycle parts were engineered to be worked on by Shop monkeys with little to no education. The tech documents are great and Campy has lots of Videos on Youtube as well. Learn to do it yourself it's a lot of fun. Just take your time.
We are only few years away until very little maintenance of wireless groupsets. Frankly, I have no interest with micro adjustments, nor do I have any interest to explain problems to mechanics.
Fiddling with adjustments will be blast from the past.
Racing is a three-dimensional high-speed chess game, involving hundreds of pieces on the board.

:arrow: CBA = Chronic Bike Addiction
:arrow: OCD = Obsessive Cycling Disorder

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cveks
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by cveks

morrisond wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:22 pm
Karvalo wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:05 pm
nachetetm wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:38 am
raisinberry777 wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:08 pm
I always laugh every time I hear the line that someone needs to find a mechanic with Campy experience. It's hardly different from setting up any other group, and all it requires is following a very basic instruction manual. I could manage it easily and I'm terrible at doing my own mechanical work.
And still, the first two mechanics that touched my Potenza front derailleur didn't manage to make it work properly. The third one was a bit concerned (according to him they almost never see a Campy bike, maybe one in a hundred he said) but nailed the job.
I think that's the main thing for this level of work, attitude not experience. If the third mechanic was concerned, it's because he cares about doing a good job.

One of the main requirements to work on Campy is the ability and willingness to read. The Campy tech documents are excellent and if you can turn a screwdriver this stuff is not Rocket Science. Follow the instructions and it works great.

The only time I found problems with getting Campy set up (before I just learned to do it myself) was with Mechanics who could not be bothered too or had the inability to read and wouldn't follow the instructions and tried to set it up like Shimano.

Remember most bicycle parts were engineered to be worked on by Shop monkeys with little to no education. The tech documents are great and Campy has lots of Videos on Youtube as well. Learn to do it yourself it's a lot of fun. Just take your time.
You are right. Thats what I did. I bought maintenance stand, and I am not doing all maintenance by myself , like adjusting rear and front derailleur etc.

graeme_f_k
Shop Owner / Manufacturer
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Location: UK
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by graeme_f_k

nachetetm wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:38 am
raisinberry777 wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:08 pm
Miller wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:23 pm
The Potenza front shift is really good.

What's the big deal about setting up a Campag group? Get the cable runs done nicely and I don't see how a sentient human can mess it up, there's no magic. Tools, 10mm AK for the UT centre bolt and that's about it. You can avoid the entire chain issue by swapping in a removable link although somehow I have installed many 11sp Campag chains without needing the beautiful but expensive chain tool.
I always laugh every time I hear the line that someone needs to find a mechanic with Campy experience. It's hardly different from setting up any other group, and all it requires is following a very basic instruction manual. I could manage it easily and I'm terrible at doing my own mechanical work.
And still, the first two mechanics that touched my Potenza front derailleur didn't manage to make it work properly. The third one was a bit concerned (according to him they almost never see a Campy bike, maybe one in a hundred he said) but nailed the job. Tbh I think a good mechanic will do marvels with any groupset, but those that are not so good still can do a decent job with Shimano groupsets just because they are used to work with them.

Regarding the chain I use KMC quick links, although Campy claims that this will void the guarantee. But replacing crankset bearings is not so easy and to my knowledge it requires specialized tools that few mechanics own.
There is no "claim" about it. Taking the link with the chain serial number out (which you can't avoid using a KMC or any other joining link) does void the warranty on the whole transmission train.

I had a RD and chain delivered to the workshop on Saturday, totally wrecked, chain failure, warranty claimed. Lodged in the cage, almost impossible to remove due to the extent of the damage, what should I find - but the remains of a broken KMC link ...

The number of Campag 10 & 11s chains that have been seen by the SCs worldwide, properly joined with the correct tool, that have failed, is absolutely tiny ... we're not allowed to reveal the actual percentage but we are allowed to say that it's so small that in any other circumstance you'd say "statistically irrelevant". On the other hand, from our rather more limited experience (in the thousands of chains, not the hundreds of thousands represented by Campagnolo production) I have accumulated a little poly bag of assorted failed joining links from various makers. I just drag that out and show it to people when they ask why we insist on joining their chain, with a rivet and the correct tool, just like the specification says ...

Crankset bearings is a pretty uncommon job - once a year tops, most users run them for two or three years before they need doing (so long as they look after their bikes with some modicum of care). I have one venerable set of SR bearings in a customer's bike that are in year 7 and not showing signs of wear yet. That' surely worth a visit to a shop that actually a) has the tools and b) knows how to use them?
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC

spartacus
Posts: 108
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:53 pm

by spartacus

I’d go Shimano hands down - even if it’s heavier - it’s flawless, set it and forget it.

morrisond
Posts: 938
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:34 pm

by morrisond

spartacus wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:21 am
I’d go Shimano hands down - even if it’s heavier - it’s flawless, set it and forget it.
It's just as set and Forget as Campagnolo - as long as the cables don't stretch - and as far as I know Shimano hasn't invented Stretchless Cables for Mechanical Derailleurs - Hence Di2/EPS and Hydro which are both set and forget.

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cveks
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by cveks

spartacus wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:21 am
I’d go Shimano hands down - even if it’s heavier - it’s flawless, set it and forget it.
Campagnolo is setup and forget

Shimano is setup and tweak all the time...

Thats what says my mechanic though....

AJS914
Posts: 3392
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

Potenza vs. Ultegra is a religious decision. Pick the one that makes you feel the best. Pick the one that when you look at your bike in the garage, you think it looks good and makes you want to ride.

I've chosen the Campagnolo religion. I stuck it out through the dark times of 7 speed syncro levers. I dabbled with Ultegra 7 speed STi on a crit bike because Campy wasn't in the Ergo game yet but I returned to the Italian religion once Ergo 8 speed levers were sorted out. I took solice in the fact that I could field strip an Ergo lever and replace g-springs whereas nobody would repair an Sti lever because they couldn't ever put it back together.

For me Campagnolo groups are just beautiful. C-Record and Record 10 speed Titanium were probably a high points. I have to say that I haven't agreed with the trend towards all black and some carbon bits that are just inferior to aluminum/steel (like front derailleur cages and rear derailleur knuckles).

I usually find Shimano groups to be ugly, especially Ultegra and lower that use a lot of paint. Dura Ace has grown on me and if I scored a deal on a bike equipped with Dura Ace Di2 I'd probably ride it and give it a proper evaluation and fair chance to remain in my stable.

If I'm buying a new group today, I'm probably buying Chorus 11 or Record 11 speed on super discount. It's the best bang for the buck right now in Campy land. If it were buying a cost is no object Italian super bike then I'd probably spec it with 12 speed.

nachetetm
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:54 pm

by nachetetm

graeme_f_k wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:03 am
nachetetm wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:38 am

And still, the first two mechanics that touched my Potenza front derailleur didn't manage to make it work properly. The third one was a bit concerned (according to him they almost never see a Campy bike, maybe one in a hundred he said) but nailed the job. Tbh I think a good mechanic will do marvels with any groupset, but those that are not so good still can do a decent job with Shimano groupsets just because they are used to work with them.

Regarding the chain I use KMC quick links, although Campy claims that this will void the guarantee. But replacing crankset bearings is not so easy and to my knowledge it requires specialized tools that few mechanics own.
There is no "claim" about it. Taking the link with the chain serial number out (which you can't avoid using a KMC or any other joining link) does void the warranty on the whole transmission train.

I had a RD and chain delivered to the workshop on Saturday, totally wrecked, chain failure, warranty claimed. Lodged in the cage, almost impossible to remove due to the extent of the damage, what should I find - but the remains of a broken KMC link ...

The number of Campag 10 & 11s chains that have been seen by the SCs worldwide, properly joined with the correct tool, that have failed, is absolutely tiny ... we're not allowed to reveal the actual percentage but we are allowed to say that it's so small that in any other circumstance you'd say "statistically irrelevant". On the other hand, from our rather more limited experience (in the thousands of chains, not the hundreds of thousands represented by Campagnolo production) I have accumulated a little poly bag of assorted failed joining links from various makers. I just drag that out and show it to people when they ask why we insist on joining their chain, with a rivet and the correct tool, just like the specification says ...

Crankset bearings is a pretty uncommon job - once a year tops, most users run them for two or three years before they need doing (so long as they look after their bikes with some modicum of care). I have one venerable set of SR bearings in a customer's bike that are in year 7 and not showing signs of wear yet. That' surely worth a visit to a shop that actually a) has the tools and b) knows how to use them?
Well, that is exactly what I am saying. You rely on a Campy dealer to do certain jobs and these dealers are few and far apart. The closest to my place is one of the mechanics I don't trust and the next one is 200 kms away. Hence using a KMC link and moaning about bearing replacement.

Unfortunately, living with a Campagnolo drivetrain is far more complicated than having Shimano, and I learnt that the hard way. That doesn't make me want to change as I prefer Potenza, but it certainly makes my bike maintenance a bit more complicated and I think it is something worth mentioning.

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Miller
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Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:54 pm
Location: Reading, UK

by Miller

"Far more complicated than having shimano" feels hyperbolic. Maybe I'm just used to Campag. Here are the Campag-specific tools I have for current bikes.
- Pedros 10mm AK for UT centre nut
- Park bearing puller CPB-3 for UT bearings. Have only used this once or twice. It's very satisfying though.
- Campagnolo cassette lockring tool
- Campagnolo plastic thing for aligning front mech on chainrings
- Hydro caliper bleed kit.
That's it, not exactly a huge investment.

I do join Campag chains with the supplied pin, never with any isssue, but I have my own method that doesn't involve the dedicated chain tool.

Anyway, back to your scheduled programme.

AJS914
Posts: 3392
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

I have changed UT bearings one time but it was from a used crank I bought on ebay. I've never worn out a set myself. Of course, I'm a fair weather rider and will repack UT bearings with some nice thick mobile 1 synthetic grease once a year.

I bought a $20 Lezyne chain tool which will peen a Campagnolo chain. I can't recommend it but lots of less expensive tools will do the peening. I'll probably buy a Park next.

RussellS
Posts: 865
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:31 am

by RussellS

cveks wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:50 pm
spartacus wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:21 am
I’d go Shimano hands down - even if it’s heavier - it’s flawless, set it and forget it.
Campagnolo is setup and forget

Shimano is setup and tweak all the time...

Thats what says my mechanic though....
NO. Campagnolo AND Shimano are both set it up and never touch it again. I own and ride mechanical Campagnolo, mechanical Shimano, and electronic Shimano. I rarely have to work on any of my bikes. They all just work forever. Pick groups from either of these two companies and you should be happy forever, for bikes anyway.

Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

cveks wrote:
spartacus wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:21 am
I’d go Shimano hands down - even if it’s heavier - it’s flawless, set it and forget it.
Campagnolo is setup and forget

Shimano is setup and tweak all the time...

Thats what says my mechanic though....
I'd question the competence of your mechanic....
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by Weenie


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