Trying not to waste more money on bike fits

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
Post Reply
User avatar
mpulsiv
Posts: 1307
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:17 pm

by mpulsiv

RocketRacing wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:18 pm
muti wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:09 pm
Nice to know that by your scale,Chris Froome,who changed this year from blue cleats to yellow,is considered casual rider.At least last year he was considered avid(blue cleats)...
Well, he did win tdf last year... this year.. what, maybe 4th or 6th place?!?! So casual! Time for him to get serious and get the red cleats!
Learn to comprehend before passive aggresive reply.
"This is how I rate cleats based on years of riding and racing". Let me repeat one more time, I said "I" not you, not Froome.
Racing is a three-dimensional high-speed chess game, involving hundreds of pieces on the board.

:arrow: CBA = Chronic Bike Addiction
:arrow: OCD = Obsessive Cycling Disorder

by Weenie


Karvalo
Posts: 701
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

mpulsiv wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:40 am
RocketRacing wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:18 pm
muti wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:09 pm
Nice to know that by your scale,Chris Froome,who changed this year from blue cleats to yellow,is considered casual rider.At least last year he was considered avid(blue cleats)...
Well, he did win tdf last year... this year.. what, maybe 4th or 6th place?!?! So casual! Time for him to get serious and get the red cleats!
Learn to comprehend before passive aggresive reply.
"This is how I rate cleats based on years of riding and racing". Let me repeat one more time, I said "I" not you, not Froome.
To be fair, I comprehended your reply as a rating for other cyclists, and I'm pretty sure that's how you meant it. As in, this is how "I" would recommend cleats for "you".

Logically, if it was only a comment for how cleats work for you, and you weren't suggesting it was applicable to other people, there wouldn't really be any point mentioning it in the first place.
Last edited by Karvalo on Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

RocketRacing
Posts: 820
Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 2:43 am

by RocketRacing

mpulsiv wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:40 am
Learn to comprehend before passive aggresive reply.
"This is how I rate cleats based on years of riding and racing". Let me repeat one more time, I said "I" not you, not Froome.
I would call it less passive agressive and more jacka$$ really.

So when you said..
“Yellow cleats = casual rider
Blue cleats = avid rider
Red cleats = competitive rider who dialed-in bike fit.”

...you ment “I”, as in you only. Me and froome are excluded. I should have known though, because rider was singular. The rider was you. That’s cool, and thanks for the clarification of your cleat choice as you progressed in biking skill/experience.

My personal rating of rider skill based on cleat choice (and this includes froome, Sagan, your mother) goes something like this:

Cleat colors mean something?!?! = casual rider
Whatever was the best deal online = cheap(price smart) rider
Whatever they find works best for them = avid rider
Whatever they find works best for them = competative rider
Whatever they want, as long as their sponsor makes it= Pro rider
Whatever they want = top level pro rider (note, most go with sponsor options as they care more about sponsorship and winning)
Time cleats = veteran rider/ex pro with knee/hip problems
Whatever cleat is lightest = weight weenie
Whatever cleat lasts the longest = fomdo/endeuro rider
Flats = hipsters (with the beards and vegan girlfirend)

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 4007
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

I'll admit, it was odd for the characterization to be generically third person rather than simply saying "I needed less float as I became a stronger cyclist."

As usual the middle ground is usually where the majority of cyclists lie regardless of their abilities. While more people could probably handle zero float and let flex in the shoe be the extra slop in the system, someone who has a dialed in fit probably doesn't need the rigid guidance. Likewise on the other end of the spectrum 15 degrees of float in a Speedplay system is only going to be useful for someone with "unique" physiology or a prior injury. Even the 9 degrees in a red KeO cleat feels weird when I'm soft pedaling.

As far as wedging goes, I vastly prefer custom footbeds with the correct medial support.

User avatar
mpulsiv
Posts: 1307
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:17 pm

by mpulsiv

RocketRacing wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:00 am
mpulsiv wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:40 am
Learn to comprehend before passive aggresive reply.
"This is how I rate cleats based on years of riding and racing". Let me repeat one more time, I said "I" not you, not Froome.
I would call it less passive agressive and more jacka$$ really.

So when you said..
“Yellow cleats = casual rider
Blue cleats = avid rider
Red cleats = competitive rider who dialed-in bike fit.”

...you ment “I”, as in you only. Me and froome are excluded. I should have known though, because rider was singular. The rider was you. That’s cool, and thanks for the clarification of your cleat choice as you progressed in biking skill/experience.

My personal rating of rider skill based on cleat choice (and this includes froome, Sagan, your mother) goes something like this:

Cleat colors mean something?!?! = casual rider
Whatever was the best deal online = cheap(price smart) rider
Whatever they find works best for them = avid rider
Whatever they find works best for them = competative rider
Whatever they want, as long as their sponsor makes it= Pro rider
Whatever they want = top level pro rider (note, most go with sponsor options as they care more about sponsorship and winning)
Time cleats = veteran rider/ex pro with knee/hip problems
Whatever cleat is lightest = weight weenie
Whatever cleat lasts the longest = fomdo/endeuro rider
Flats = hipsters (with the beards and vegan girlfirend)
Your first reply wasn't enough to prove me wrong so you are back to make it crystal clear with slew of irrelavent examples? :smartass:
Yellow cleat is the stock cleat that comes with pedals. Most riders don't bother seeking an alternative, nor do they bother replacing insoles with medium-high arch. The fact is ~ 60% of the population have medium-high arch. Yellow cleat are advertised as 6° of float but it real world they float close to 9°. Not to mention they have lateral float.
Based on years of training and racing, yellow cleats always felt sloppy. Feet don't feel planted like with blue cleat, better yet red cleats.

You can ride what you want. No need to bring up Froome, Sagan or my mother into this. Oh, wait you also said something about jacka$$?
Racing is a three-dimensional high-speed chess game, involving hundreds of pieces on the board.

:arrow: CBA = Chronic Bike Addiction
:arrow: OCD = Obsessive Cycling Disorder

basilic
Posts: 752
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:05 am
Location: Geneva, Switzerland

by basilic

Rocket-man, that was funny ;-)

cro2
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:39 am

by cro2

One more thing to note about cleat shims and clipping the top tube: some of thos problems come from feet, and some can be a result of other imbalances in the body, like a twisted hip bone. In the latter case putting shims will correct the result, but not address the problem (as, in fact is in my case). To really deal with it you should consult a physician, get some therapy and work on the core muscles. This is not only about riding a bike comfortable, but also to be healthy in a long run in the first place.

mattr
Posts: 4671
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
Location: The Grim North.

by mattr

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:19 am
As far as wedging goes, I vastly prefer custom footbeds with the correct medial support.
12 quid for an experiment in the workshop based on a few years of looking at various biomechanical issues and a uni module 20 years ago. Vs a minimum of £100, more likely twice that, and the possibility of new shoes due to the increased volume of the foot bed.......

Yeah. 12 quid and a few sessions on the turbo with a go pro (that i already have) is far more productive!

mattr
Posts: 4671
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
Location: The Grim North.

by mattr

cro2 wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:20 am
and some can be a result of other imbalances in the body, like a twisted hip bone. In the latter case putting shims will correct the result, but not address the problem (as, in fact is in my case). To really deal with it you should consult a physician,
yeah. My back issue requires surgery to correct, with a fairly reasonable chance of leaving me either in a wheel chair or incontinent. Shims make me comfortable on the bike, gym work and exercise will slow the degradation. And FWIW, the knee tracking issue has been there for 20+ years and not been a problem, the back issue is new, but seems to have highlighted and amplified a few other biomechanical niggles, crank length being another.

cro2
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:39 am

by cro2

mattr wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:02 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:19 am
As far as wedging goes, I vastly prefer custom footbeds with the correct medial support.
12 quid for an experiment in the workshop based on a few years of looking at various biomechanical issues and a uni module 20 years ago. Vs a minimum of £100, more likely twice that, and the possibility of new shoes due to the increased volume of the foot bed.......

Yeah. 12 quid and a few sessions on the turbo with a go pro (that i already have) is far more productive!
This argument kinda reminds me of what my friend who is in cargo business once told me about customers wailing that they don't need cargo forwarders, they can do everything on their own for less mony and in shorter time. Yeah, right, except that no ship operator is gonna do any talks with a guy wanting to move one or two cargo containers halfway through the world.
mattr wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:02 am
And FWIW, the knee tracking issue has been there for 20+ years and not been a problem, the back issue is new, but seems to have highlighted and amplified a few other biomechanical niggles, crank length being another.
That's your opinion, but as far as advice for others is considered, it's better to consult a professional than leave it unhandled and hope that those issues are not rlated in any way.

mattr
Posts: 4671
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
Location: The Grim North.

by mattr

cro2 wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:08 am
mattr wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:02 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:19 am
As far as wedging goes, I vastly prefer custom footbeds with the correct medial support.
12 quid for an experiment in the workshop based on a few years of looking at various biomechanical issues and a uni module 20 years ago. Vs a minimum of £100, more likely twice that, and the possibility of new shoes due to the increased volume of the foot bed.......

Yeah. 12 quid and a few sessions on the turbo with a go pro (that i already have) is far more productive!
This argument kinda reminds me of what my friend who is in cargo business once told me about customers wailing that they don't need cargo forwarders, they can do everything on their own for less mony and in shorter time. Yeah, right, except that no ship operator is gonna do any talks with a guy wanting to move one or two cargo containers halfway through the world.
at a guess I'm probably better "qualified" and more experienced than 90% of the fitters out there. The ones charging you 300 for a shoddy fit. The one that miraculously puts you precisely on something that they stock
cro2 wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:08 am
mattr wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:02 am
And FWIW, the knee tracking issue has been there for 20+ years and not been a problem, the back issue is new, but seems to have highlighted and amplified a few other biomechanical niggles, crank length being another.
That's your opinion, but as far as advice for others is considered, it's better to consult a professional than leave it unhandled and hope that those issues are not rlated in any way.
How exactly do you think i know that I need surgery and the risks related to the surgery i need?

mattr
Posts: 4671
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
Location: The Grim North.

by mattr

I guess this is the issue with modern society, the default position is to throw money at any problem. Rather than throwing some rational thought and basic problem solving skills at it instead.

Combined with expensive advice being better than cheap advice. Even when it's the same advice.

Ah well. Keeps the money in circulation.

User avatar
otoman
Posts: 472
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:25 pm
Location: Nashville

by otoman

cro2 wrote:One more thing to note about cleat shims and clipping the top tube: some of thos problems come from feet, and some can be a result of other imbalances in the body, like a twisted hip bone. In the latter case putting shims will correct the result, but not address the problem (as, in fact is in my case). To really deal with it you should consult a physician, get some therapy and work on the core muscles. This is not only about riding a bike comfortable, but also to be healthy in a long run in the first place.
I agree with this as my own personal experience reflects this. I also found that my hips twist if my saddle position is wrong, specifically too high. For me, my hips twist to the left with my right thigh grazing the top tube and a hot spot develops on the outside of my right foot. Very Mancebo of me haha. This was figured out without an expensive bike fit. Actually a buddy pointed it out after drafting behind me....

Tobin’s point about custom footbeds is excellent as well. If not custom then at least some nice aftermarket footbeds for foot stabilization.

I must be one of the few weirdos that still use Speedplay X series pedals. Total unrestricted free float. I find that having the float forces the other fit issues to be dealt with - hip strength and flexibility, core strength, proper alignment on the bike, etc which all takes pressure off my knees. Never had any issues with the knees since switching from Looks 10 years ago. “Look! My knees hurt!” Image
Age and treachery shall overcome youth and skill

cro2
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:39 am

by cro2

mattr wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:00 pm
at a guess I'm probably better "qualified" and more experienced than 90% of the fitters out there. The ones charging you 300 for a shoddy fit. The one that miraculously puts you precisely on something that they stock
This basically makes any further reasoning pointless. One point I agree with you, however, is that there are fitters and fitters, just the same as in any other profession. Some are sloppy and just give you the numbers based on measured lengths of your limbs and some will perform a thorough physical examination before you even sit on the bike. The choice is yours.
mattr wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:00 pm
I guess this is the issue with modern society, the default position is to throw money at any problem. Rather than throwing some rational thought and basic problem solving skills at it instead.
Your rationale is based on your beliefs, not actual studies or proofs.

by Weenie


User avatar
themidge
Posts: 1155
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:19 pm
Location: underneath sweet Scottish rain

by themidge

Looks like I opened a can of worms didn't I? :D Nothing like a good discussion though.

@Calnago, thank's for the tips. I'm perfectly comfortable at the moment, but when my current yellow cleats wear out I'll have a go with red ones. If those don't work out, then I suspect the blue ones will be a perfect middle-ground since I definitely don't use the whole float of the yellow ones.

Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post