Trying not to waste more money on bike fits

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
Karvalo
Posts: 705
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

mpulsiv wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:44 am
First sign when the saddle is too high is rocking hips. You didn’t feel it? Quite often I pull up to riders and encourage them to lower the saddle. It’s quite obvious to see rocking hips from the back.
Usually, but not always.

Some people with stretchy hammies and calves and mobile ankles can ride quite significantly too high but still appear stable on the saddle. Conversely some people with crap flexibility and mobility will rock and roll a bit no matter what saddle height you give them.

zefs
Posts: 438
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:40 pm

by zefs

wheelsONfire wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:40 am
No i didn't suffer from rocking hips.
I had lower back pain. But again, i get that from long walks to.
But riding lower, i don't feel like i stretch too much.
Weirdly, i didn't feel that back when i rode higher.
There's alot of details i actually can't understand around this.
Lower back pain is a good indication for high saddle.

by Weenie


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mpulsiv
Posts: 1307
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:17 pm

by mpulsiv

Karvalo wrote:
mpulsiv wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:44 am
First sign when the saddle is too high is rocking hips. You didn’t feel it? Quite often I pull up to riders and encourage them to lower the saddle. It’s quite obvious to see rocking hips from the back.
Usually, but not always.

Some people with stretchy hammies and calves and mobile ankles can ride quite significantly too high but still appear stable on the saddle. Conversely some people with crap flexibility and mobility will rock and roll a bit no matter what saddle height you give them.
Fluid pedal stroke is a good indicator. Riders who are not flexible will exhibit sloppy pedal stroke. This is something visible to a naked eye hence the reason I suggest to ride with your buddy and observe the pedal stroke from different angles. I have seen many riders with a twitch in the ankle. As pedal comes down to 70-90 degrees, their ankle wants to clip out. I’m no expert in biomechanics but logically my recommendation would be to switch to cleats with less float. I have gone from Shimano yellow -> blue -> red cleats. Even though red cleats are labeled as “0” float there’s still plenty of float. Don’t get freaked out by the label on the packaging. From my direct experience, fluid pedal stroke will help you dial in other imperfections in your “bike fit”. I can tell you that Shimano yellow cleats could contribute to sloppy pedal stroke. As a matter of fact any pedals with generous float are labeled as “entry level for casual riders” in my books.
Racing is a three-dimensional high-speed chess game, involving hundreds of pieces on the board.

:arrow: CBA = Chronic Bike Addiction
:arrow: OCD = Obsessive Cycling Disorder

zefs
Posts: 438
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:40 pm

by zefs

If the rest of the setup is good float shouldn't be an issue. Usually improper arch support, not stable pelvis/saddle height will contribute to the pedal stroke not being smooth enough. Also shoe size and shape which needs to fit like a glove, that's why the more expensive ones come with 2 boas, if your shoes are snug and the cleats are in the correct place a high amount of float is not relevant, from: https://neillsbikefit.com.au/?page_id=348
If the foot squirms on the pedal and feels “loose” with rotational float happening on each pedal stroke – then you have an issue with the plane of the knee’s movement which is simply manifesting in the foot as the torsion forces are transmitted through the tibial bone into the foot. The solution is to correct whatever is causing the knee to move in an unnatural plane of motion – this can range from improper foot correction, not enough arch support, an improper foot separation distance, a dropping hip and so on, the list is endless. The moral of this story is that if your foot feels unstable and slippery on the cleat – the issue is not the cleat’s ability to rotate – it is whatever is causing the improper movement of your knee.

Float is such a simple thing that it should never be an issue for almost any rider – if your position is good, you can have as much float as you like and your foot should never feet unstable on the pedal.

uraqt
Posts: 895
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 8:53 am

by uraqt

Here is just one example ... but there are three or four....

https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2013/10/aut ... eview.html

Get the software and then have a freind take video of you riding...

C

bikeboy1tr
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:19 am
Location: Southern Ontario Canada

by bikeboy1tr

I know when my seat is to high the backside of my knee will start to develope pain after a two hour ride. As far as float goes on the pedal I do need to have some on the left foot as I have a left hip that is somewhat misaligned and I cannot do anything with it. Been to massage therapists and chiropracters but to no avail. I do run a wedge under my cleat to keep the knee more inline as the hip causes the knee to go out at the top of the stroke. The wedge helps alot and keeps wear on the cleat to a minimum. My feet never feel unstable on my pedal but I do need a little float for the root problem (hip). I cannot get to crazy with wedges as my knee will develope pain on the side. I know my fit changes as I get older and I do what I can with adjustments to stay pain free. So far so good.
"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving"-Albert Einstein
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themidge
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by themidge

I have my cleats (shimano yellow) set up up so they bottom out, so to speak, before my foot can rub the crank arm. I've ended up riding with my feet in that position, all the way to the inside but because of my setup, pretty straight compared to the bike/the rest of me.
I feel therefore that I might be alright on Shimano red (zero float) or aerolite pedals if I ever get some, but the idea of being locked in fills me with fear of knee injuries, thoughts?

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 4033
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

themidge wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:03 am
I have my cleats (shimano yellow) set up up so they bottom out, so to speak, before my foot can rub the crank arm. I've ended up riding with my feet in that position, all the way to the inside but because of my setup, pretty straight compared to the bike/the rest of me.
I feel therefore that I might be alright on Shimano red (zero float) or aerolite pedals if I ever get some, but the idea of being locked in fills me with fear of knee injuries, thoughts?

You'll know almost instantly if zero-float is right or wrong for you. Within the first couple miles, especially if climbing is involved. I found that zero-float cleats stabilized my knee tracking, but it does have side-effects. For one I have to set the tension on the pedals to nearly maximum to prevent clipping out in sprints with zero-float KeO cleats on Vector 3s.

I've settled back onto minimal float cleats now that my pedaling technique is stronger/better.

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mpulsiv
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Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:17 pm

by mpulsiv

TobinHatesYou wrote:
themidge wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:03 am
I have my cleats (shimano yellow) set up up so they bottom out, so to speak, before my foot can rub the crank arm. I've ended up riding with my feet in that position, all the way to the inside but because of my setup, pretty straight compared to the bike/the rest of me.
I feel therefore that I might be alright on Shimano red (zero float) or aerolite pedals if I ever get some, but the idea of being locked in fills me with fear of knee injuries, thoughts?

You'll know almost instantly if zero-float is right or wrong for you. Within the first couple miles, especially if climbing is involved. I found that zero-float cleats stabilized my knee tracking, but it does have side-effects. For one I have to set the tension on the pedals to nearly maximum to prevent clipping out in sprints with zero-float KeO cleats on Vector 3s.

I've settled back onto minimal float cleats now that my pedaling technique is stronger/better.
Shimano red cleats are advertised as “0” float but it’s not. It feels like 3-4 degrees. Don’t let the label freak you out.
This is how I rate cleats based on years of riding and racing:
Yellow cleats = casual rider
Blue cleats = avid rider
Red cleats = competitive rider who dialed-in bike fit.

Cleat float is one of those things that is overlooked. You’d be amazed how much your pedal stroke will improve when you minimize float. Your legs are your pistons. In order to achieve fluid motion, keep your cadence high and keep them aligned. Less float = less room for error.
Racing is a three-dimensional high-speed chess game, involving hundreds of pieces on the board.

:arrow: CBA = Chronic Bike Addiction
:arrow: OCD = Obsessive Cycling Disorder

muti
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:09 am

by muti

Nice to know that by your scale,Chris Froome,who changed this year from blue cleats to yellow,is considered casual rider.At least last year he was considered avid(blue cleats)...

RocketRacing
Posts: 833
Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 2:43 am

by RocketRacing

muti wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:09 pm
Nice to know that by your scale,Chris Froome,who changed this year from blue cleats to yellow,is considered casual rider.At least last year he was considered avid(blue cleats)...
Well, he did win tdf last year... this year.. what, maybe 4th or 6th place?!?! So casual! Time for him to get serious and get the red cleats!
Last edited by RocketRacing on Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

RocketRacing
Posts: 833
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by RocketRacing

Double post

cro2
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:39 am

by cro2

mpulsiv wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:24 am
Cleat float is one of those things that is overlooked. You’d be amazed how much your pedal stroke will improve when you minimize float. Your legs are your pistons. In order to achieve fluid motion, keep your cadence high and keep them aligned. Less float = less room for error.
This is one of the worst pieces of advice one can offer when dialling in a bike fit. It's not a one-size-fits-all solution, but highly dependent on the actual characteristics of your body. A solution that works for you may (and most likely will) be disastrous to anybody else. The "less float equals less room for error" is a total misunderstanding of the idea of a bike fit :roll:

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Calnago
Posts: 8429
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

themidge wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:03 am
I have my cleats (shimano yellow) set up up so they bottom out, so to speak, before my foot can rub the crank arm. I've ended up riding with my feet in that position, all the way to the inside but because of my setup, pretty straight compared to the bike/the rest of me.
I feel therefore that I might be alright on Shimano red (zero float) or aerolite pedals if I ever get some, but the idea of being locked in fills me with fear of knee injuries, thoughts?
Ok, I don't think whether you use red, blue, or yellow cleats determines your prowess as a rider. And I most certainly don't think you will know within 2 blocks of riding whether zero float cleats are for you or not. What a problem in that short as distance indicates is that your cleats aren't even close to being set up correctly from the get go, regardless what pedals or cleats you're using.

But if you want to try zero float cleats, say the red shimano over the yellow ones, do this first. Release the tension on your pedals as much as possible, so that you can really let your natural foot and leg motion slide around easily. Go for a ride with cleat wrench in hand and make sure that the yellow cleats are in fact optimally set up. You can usually tell if they want to float around a bit. Try to get them adjusted so that they naturally don't float and are tracking pretty straight, or whatever is "natural" for you. If it doesn't look like your feet are floating with the yellow cleats set up perfectly, you'll probably do quite well with the fixed cleats if you want to try them out. Trace out the outline with a white bistro marker or something. Then put the red cleats on in exactly the same position and go for a ride. Take the wrench. Give yourself a half hour or so to really get a feel for them, unless they're so obviously wrong that you know instantly a quick adjustment needs to be made to your starting point. I find that if I have the red cleats not perfectly set it will take a while, but you'll start to feel it in your knee if something's wrong. So try to figure out which way you need to move the cleat to correct for that. Make the change. Ride some more. Repeat this until you don't feel anything that could even be construed as problematic in your knees. Go for some long rides. It's a process. If you get to a point where you don't even think about it, and your legs/feet track perfectly fine, then you're good. You're probably a great candidate to lock those red cleats down and never look back. Conversely, if no matter what you do, you still get knee issues, then maybe the fixed cleats aren't for you and some float may be better.

Getting cleats set up properly is equally as important as getting your saddle position dialed in. I always start with the cleats however.
Last edited by Calnago on Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mattr
Posts: 4673
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
Location: The Grim North.

by mattr

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:15 am
I found that zero-float cleats stabilized my knee tracking, but it does have side-effects. For one I have to set the tension on the pedals to nearly maximum to prevent clipping out in sprints with zero-float KeO cleats on Vector 3s.
Try cleat shims instead. I've found most of the tracking problems i've addressed (both mine and others) have been due to the footbed being canted incorrectly. Once thats fixed, the float has pretty much become an irrelevance. Or at least, a couple of magnitudes less important. The wear marks on my newest pedals (bought after shims were fitted) are tiny compared to the wear marks on my earlier pedals (Time pedals, so masses of float, same cleat position, same shoes).
I naturally sit slightly knock kneed and heels in, i've taken the paint off frames with larger top tubes and with more widely spaced stays, with the cant correction, problem gone, my knees now track straight throughout the pedal stroke. (I actually need another pack of shims, as i've got one pair of shoes without shims........)

by Weenie


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