New cannondale SYSTEMSIX road frame!

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
rawjunk
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat May 27, 2017 12:52 pm

by rawjunk



Damn that front end just looks wrong with Vision handlebars(at 0:06 mark).

by Weenie


CAAD8FRED
Posts: 277
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:52 pm

by CAAD8FRED

DamonRinard wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:05 am
Hi yltman,

Seems like a question some wind tunnel test should have already answered, but I don't recall a clean head-to-head against a classic steel frame. There was one with two completely different bikes (old v. new), but so many other components were different (wheels, handlebar, etc.), it's hard to say much about the frame drag.

Cheers,
Damon
Hey Damon

I’m deciding between the Madone 6 SLR Disc and Ultegra Mech SysSix (having more room for upgrade with the SysSix). Do you know the weight of the Ultegra Mech model and it’s stiffness?

User avatar
C36
Posts: 1063
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

CAAD8FRED wrote:
DamonRinard wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:05 am
Hi yltman,

Seems like a question some wind tunnel test should have already answered, but I don't recall a clean head-to-head against a classic steel frame. There was one with two completely different bikes (old v. new), but so many other components were different (wheels, handlebar, etc.), it's hard to say much about the frame drag.

Cheers,
Damon
Hey Damon

I’m deciding between the Madone 6 SLR Disc and Ultegra Mech SysSix (having more room for upgrade with the SysSix). Do you know the weight of the Ultegra Mech model and it’s stiffness?
Stiffness values are on the white paper (and variable with size). Now getting a value without knowing the experimental protocol is very limited since you can’t compare to anything else. Image
Finally, using published info, if they used the SS Evo as reference that’s pretty solid standard... today I still can’t find a bike with better dynamic behaviour (ok i know equivalent stiffness =/= same behaviour... but their baseline remain an exceptional one)


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CAAD8FRED
Posts: 277
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:52 pm

by CAAD8FRED

C36 wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:32 am
CAAD8FRED wrote:
DamonRinard wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:05 am
Hi yltman,

Seems like a question some wind tunnel test should have already answered, but I don't recall a clean head-to-head against a classic steel frame. There was one with two completely different bikes (old v. new), but so many other components were different (wheels, handlebar, etc.), it's hard to say much about the frame drag.

Cheers,
Damon
Hey Damon

I’m deciding between the Madone 6 SLR Disc and Ultegra Mech SysSix (having more room for upgrade with the SysSix). Do you know the weight of the Ultegra Mech model and it’s stiffness?
Stiffness values are on the white paper (and variable with size). Now getting a value without knowing the experimental protocol is very limited since you can’t compare to anything else. Image
Finally, using published info, if they used the SS Evo as reference that’s pretty solid standard... today I still can’t find a bike with better dynamic behaviour (ok i know equivalent stiffness =/= same behaviour... but their baseline remain an exceptional one)


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk
The paragraph answered my stiffness question but I’d still like to know whole bike weight to compare to the Trek

DamonRinard
in the industry
Posts: 392
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:32 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

by DamonRinard

Hi CAAD8FRED,

Sorry, I don't know the weight of the Ultegra SystemSix you mentioned. However, I was just on a conference call with our EF-Drapac p/b Cannondale pro team technical director, and they mentioned the SystemSix was within a hundred grams of the same size Trek. Although team-issue components are slightly different, I wonder if that's helpful?

@C36, thanks for the stiffness data. Our test follows the TOUR Magazine protocols, for both head tube and bottom bracket stiffness, so should be comparable with other TOUR Magazine tests. I thought we had mentioned that in the white paper but maybe not.

Funny story: the stiffness numbers above, in our white paper, are from our factory's Zedler test bench. In addition, we also send one final frame to the Zedler Institut for "official" results and for the last several projects Zedler has told us the frame is slightly stiffer than our lab's numbers. In my 20-plus-year career it's always been a question how can such a simple measure like stiffness vary so much between "identical" test benches (despite official calibration, etc.)? At the last several companies I worked for we had a few "golden frames" that we'd send around to the various test labs to develop correction factors. Ha - even those frames came back with slightly different numbers!

Anyway, interesting engineering challenges aside, the bottom line is the SystemSix is virtually the same stiffness as the EVO, which as you guessed, was our goal for the project.

Cheers,
Damon
Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager, Road Bikes
Cycling Sports Group, Cannondale
Ex-Kestrel, ex-Velomax, ex-Trek, ex-Cervelo

DamonRinard
in the industry
Posts: 392
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:32 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

by DamonRinard

CAAD8FRED wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:46 am
The paragraph answered my stiffness question but I’d still like to know whole bike weight to compare to the Trek
Hi CAAD8FRED,

Just got this info from our inside sales folks. Not all models are listed, but this is what we have so far.

For size 56:
7.60 kg SystemSix Hi-MOD DA Di2
7.80 kg SystemSix Hi-MOD Ultegra Di2
7.75 kg SystemSix Carbon Da
8.05 kg SystemSix Carbon Ultegra

Note that weights include innertubes and all assembly pieces (spoke guard/reflectors).

Cheers,
Damon
Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager, Road Bikes
Cycling Sports Group, Cannondale
Ex-Kestrel, ex-Velomax, ex-Trek, ex-Cervelo

bikesrdangerousmmk
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:54 am

by bikesrdangerousmmk

Couple local Dale shops I spoke to are only ordering the lower spec bikes without the knot wheels and stem/bar.

Don’t think I’ll have a chance to ride the whole package without ordering outright. Gonna have to rely on other early adopters to check this out, as the wheels and front end seem like essential parts for buying into this particular setup.

CAAD8FRED
Posts: 277
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:52 pm

by CAAD8FRED

DamonRinard wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:46 pm
CAAD8FRED wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:46 am
The paragraph answered my stiffness question but I’d still like to know whole bike weight to compare to the Trek
Hi CAAD8FRED,

Just got this info from our inside sales folks. Not all models are listed, but this is what we have so far.

For size 56:
7.60 kg SystemSix Hi-MOD DA Di2
7.80 kg SystemSix Hi-MOD Ultegra Di2
7.75 kg SystemSix Carbon Da
8.05 kg SystemSix Carbon Ultegra

Note that weights include innertubes and all assembly pieces (spoke guard/reflectors).

Cheers,
Damon
Thanks Damon!

bikesrdangerousmmk
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:54 am

by bikesrdangerousmmk

DamonRinard wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:37 am
Hi Robert,

Just got the numbers Here they are:

Dimensions are below and cover SystemSix.

Hbar: 47 380MM; 51-54 400MM; 56 & 58CM/ 420MM; 60 & 62CM/ 440MM
Stem: 47 80mm; 51CM/ 90MM; 54- 58CM/ 100MM; 60 & 62CM/ 110MM
Cranks: 47CM 165MM, 51-54CM 170MM, 56-58CM 172.5MM, 60-62CM 175MM

Cheers,
Damon
The handlebars looks like they flare at the drops. Is there a difference in tops and drops width? Also, are the numbers center to center? Thanks.

Also, are the wheels certified for tubeless with the right rim tape?

DamonRinard
in the industry
Posts: 392
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:32 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

by DamonRinard

bikesrdangerousmmk wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:01 am
DamonRinard wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:37 am
Hi Robert,

Just got the numbers Here they are:

Dimensions are below and cover SystemSix.

Hbar: 47 380MM; 51-54 400MM; 56 & 58CM/ 420MM; 60 & 62CM/ 440MM
Stem: 47 80mm; 51CM/ 90MM; 54- 58CM/ 100MM; 60 & 62CM/ 110MM
Cranks: 47CM 165MM, 51-54CM 170MM, 56-58CM 172.5MM, 60-62CM 175MM

Cheers,
Damon
The handlebars looks like they flare at the drops. Is there a difference in tops and drops width? Also, are the numbers center to center? Thanks.

Also, are the wheels certified for tubeless with the right rim tape?
Hi bikesrdangerousmmk,

Good eye, yes the bars flare quite a bit. They are 2cm narrower at the hoods (to encourage a nice low-drag body position) and 1cm wider at the ends (for stability when you need it). All measures are center to center.

Yes, the rims are tubeless compatible and come with tubeless rim tape already installed.

Cheers,
Damon
Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager, Road Bikes
Cycling Sports Group, Cannondale
Ex-Kestrel, ex-Velomax, ex-Trek, ex-Cervelo

pyrahna
Posts: 150
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:53 pm

by pyrahna

DamonRinard wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:29 am
Hi CAAD8FRED,

Sorry, I don't know the weight of the Ultegra SystemSix you mentioned. However, I was just on a conference call with our EF-Drapac p/b Cannondale pro team technical director, and they mentioned the SystemSix was within a hundred grams of the same size Trek. Although team-issue components are slightly different, I wonder if that's helpful?

@C36, thanks for the stiffness data. Our test follows the TOUR Magazine protocols, for both head tube and bottom bracket stiffness, so should be comparable with other TOUR Magazine tests. I thought we had mentioned that in the white paper but maybe not.

Funny story: the stiffness numbers above, in our white paper, are from our factory's Zedler test bench. In addition, we also send one final frame to the Zedler Institut for "official" results and for the last several projects Zedler has told us the frame is slightly stiffer than our lab's numbers. In my 20-plus-year career it's always been a question how can such a simple measure like stiffness vary so much between "identical" test benches (despite official calibration, etc.)? At the last several companies I worked for we had a few "golden frames" that we'd send around to the various test labs to develop correction factors. Ha - even those frames came back with slightly different numbers!

Anyway, interesting engineering challenges aside, the bottom line is the SystemSix is virtually the same stiffness as the EVO, which as you guessed, was our goal for the project.

Cheers,
Damon
Completly unrelated to bicycles story that illistrates the above engineering problem/challenge. At one point in time I worked for a company that was sponsored by Budweiser and the Head Brewmeister came to our company to do a beer testing / lesson in beer making. It was a lot more interesting than I would of guessed going in. One of the stories he told was at the end of every month a random 6 pack of Budweiser beer was shipped in to headquarters in St. Louis and the top brass would drink about a shot of beer from each brewery to make sure they all tasted the same. Even with all the modern controls in factories they still found the occasional batch that was different and had to drop the production for that period of time and fix the problem.

wingguy
Posts: 4321
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:43 pm

by wingguy

DamonRinard wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:40 am
Good eye, yes the bars flare quite a bit. They are 2cm narrower at the hoods (to encourage a nice low-drag body position) and 1cm wider at the ends (for stability when you need it). All measures are center to center.
Centre to centre where?

Sounds like the reference is neither the clamping zone nor the bar end...

willmac
Posts: 164
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:33 am

by willmac

Pretty sure it means equivalent to a centre to centre measurement on a standard bar. Then subtract two from the hoods and add one to the drops

bikesrdangerousmmk
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:54 am

by bikesrdangerousmmk

willmac wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:44 pm
Pretty sure it means equivalent to a centre to centre measurement on a standard bar. Then subtract two from the hoods and add one to the drops
I read that the same as you: e.g., a nominal 42 bar is 42 middle of drops, 40 at hoods, and 43 on bar ends.

DamonRinard
in the industry
Posts: 392
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:32 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

by DamonRinard

bikesrdangerousmmk wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:47 pm
willmac wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:44 pm
Pretty sure it means equivalent to a centre to centre measurement on a standard bar. Then subtract two from the hoods and add one to the drops
I read that the same as you: e.g., a nominal 42 bar is 42 middle of drops, 40 at hoods, and 43 on bar ends.
Hi everyone,

Sorry for my unclear description. Willmac and bikesrdangerousmmk got it. A nominal 42cm bar measures 43 center to center at the ends, and 40 at the hoods (center to center as well).

Cheers,
Damon
Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager, Road Bikes
Cycling Sports Group, Cannondale
Ex-Kestrel, ex-Velomax, ex-Trek, ex-Cervelo

by Weenie


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